Complaint Thread

[marcandre]

  On 2/25/2021 at 9:28 PM, Alpinemaps said:

RIP Don Rickles

                                                                                                                                                                                     

Expand  

Rickles was the best. He famously ripped on DeNiro every chance he got on the Casino set. 

 

[Darth_Raichu]

Progress.  If you have daughters / nieces who are into sports, the next few years are going to be.. interesting

https://news.yahoo.com/justice-department-withdraws-support-transgender-134629097.html

[$20 on joe vs dan]

  On 2/25/2021 at 11:14 PM, Darth_Raichu said:

Progress.  If you have daughters / nieces who are into sports, the next few years are going to be.. interesting

https://news.yahoo.com/justice-department-withdraws-support-transgender-134629097.html

Expand  

I read the article and even more confused.

So if an anatomically male professes to be transgender and competes in a women's league...is this right wrong or there's no 'binary" answer?

seems unfair if we're only looking at physical advantage

what side is the government taking?

[fuzzy_bricks]

  On 2/25/2021 at 11:23 PM, $20 on joe vs dan said:

I read the article and even more confused.

So if an anatomically male professes to be transgender and competes in a women's league...is this right wrong or there's no 'binary" answer?

seems unfair if we're only looking at physical advantage

what side is the government taking?

Expand  

IANAL, but this is how I understood it, two transgender athletes were allowed to compete in track and field, three girls filed suit against the governing body for the policy that allowed the transgender athletes to compete.  The Justice Department did support the girls' suit, but has since removed support per the article.

And here I thought they believed in science.

[Darth_Raichu]

  On 2/25/2021 at 11:23 PM, $20 on joe vs dan said:

So if an anatomically male professes to be transgender and competes in a women's league...is this right wrong or there's no 'binary" answer?

seems unfair if we're only looking at physical advantage

Expand  

This seems to be something the women need to decide.

  On 2/25/2021 at 11:23 PM, $20 on joe vs dan said:

what side is the government taking?

Expand  

On the bottom of that very article:

  Quote

But President Biden signed on his first day in office an executive order focused on "preventing and combating discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation." 

Expand  

 

[Darth_Raichu]

  On 2/25/2021 at 11:36 PM, fuzzy_bricks said:

IANAL, but this is how I understood it, two transgender athletes were allowed to compete in track and field, three girls filed suit against the governing body for the policy that allowed the transgender athletes to compete.  The Justice Department did support the girls' suit, but has since removed support per the article.

And here I thought they believed in science.

Expand  

The old white male Attorney General under Trump expressed interest to support the 3 girls in this case.  The new administration withdrew that support

[$20 on joe vs dan]

IANAL, but this is how I understood it, two transgender athletes were allowed to compete in track and field, three girls filed suit against the governing body for the policy that allowed the transgender athletes to compete. 

this sort of thing could probably get resolved real easily if there was a picture

 

[Darth_Raichu]

  On 2/25/2021 at 11:43 PM, $20 on joe vs dan said:

IANAL, but this is how I understood it, two transgender athletes were allowed to compete in track and field, three girls filed suit against the governing body for the policy that allowed the transgender athletes to compete. 

this sort of thing could probably get resolved real easily if there was a picture

 

Expand  

This article has a picture of 1 of the 3 girls who filed the lawsuit

https://news.yahoo.com/female-track-star-lawsuit-stop-183048186.html

[$20 on joe vs dan]

  On 2/25/2021 at 11:46 PM, Darth_Raichu said:

This article has a picture of 1 of the 3 girls who filed the lawsuit

https://news.yahoo.com/female-track-star-lawsuit-stop-183048186.html

Expand  

thanks but not what I meant

[Shortbus311]

Just wait until the next up and coming NBA prospect decides to declare for the WNBA draft instead of the NBA.

[BrickLover80]

  On 2/26/2021 at 12:22 AM, Shortbus311 said:

Just wait until the next up and coming NBA prospect decides to declare for the WNBA draft instead of the NBA.

Expand  

Considering the dollars involved, that's not gonna happen. The opposite might. And would be allowed under NBA rules. You don't have to be male to play in the NBA. Of course, that's extremely unlikely to happen (except as a marketing ploy).

I don't know about the case in question but at the Olympic level, the transgender athletes have to adhere to strict testosterone testing. Google "Semenya". I imagine the same would apply to US college sports. Real life is more complicated than either side in these culture wars makes it out to be.

[Alpinemaps]

  On 2/25/2021 at 11:37 PM, Darth_Raichu said:

 

Sure is interesting. My mom, who is in her early 79s, a Woodstock hippy, liberal as the day is long, progressive for LGBQ+ rights and an original member of the Women’s Lib movement (all her words), is having a tough time with this issue.

So far, she seems to be coming down on the side of those students. She does see it as an unfair advantage and wrong for the women to have to compete against the transgender women. She feels like this is a set back of 50 years.

[spener90]

  On 2/26/2021 at 12:42 AM, BrickLover80 said:

Considering the dollars involved, that's not gonna happen. The opposite might. And would be allowed under NBA rules. You don't have to be male to play in the NBA. Of course, that's extremely unlikely to happen (except as a marketing ploy).

Expand  

There are roughly 400 NBA players, if women entered the league and it consisted on a skill and talent basis only, it would still consist of 400 male players. The ridiculous of someone like Brittney Greiner saying she could beat Demarcus Cousins is the most laughable thing ever, and I'm fairly confident she wasn't being sarcastic.

Also, I am a fairly decent golfer, but not at the professional level. If I joined the LPGA tour, I would lead the tour in average drive, and it wouldn't be close. They would proceed to crush me from that point (I have never been great around the green), but the point stands.

This isn't sexism, its science.

Edited February 26, 2021 by spener90

[redghostx]

I think it may be clearer when Semenya's upcoming court challenge in Europe is settled. I think this is their last chance after repeated losses.
I lean liberal socially, but I don't think it's fair to most women to have to compete against transgendered athletes unless they can prove that they don't have a built in chemical edge (eg. Low testosterone)

[$20 on joe vs dan]

  On 2/26/2021 at 12:47 AM, Alpinemaps said:

 

Sure is interesting. My mom, who is in her early 79s, a Woodstock hippy, liberal as the day is long, progressive for LGBQ+ rights and an original member of the Women’s Lib movement (all her words), is having a tough time with this issue.

So far, she seems to be coming down on the side of those students. She does see it as an unfair advantage and wrong for the women to have to compete against the transgender women. She feels like this is a set back of 50 years.

 

Expand  

I openly admit I pushed the snooze button when it comes to being "woke" about this topic...I mean, how would locker rooms work?

[BrickLover80]

  On 2/26/2021 at 12:56 AM, spener90 said:

There are roughly 400 NBA players, if women entered the league and it consisted on a skill and talent basis only, it would still consist of 400 male players. The ridiculous of someone like Brittney Greiner saying she could beat Demarcus Cousins is the most laughable thing ever, and I'm fairly confident she wasn't being sarcastic.

Also, I am a fairly decent golfer, but not at the professional level. If I joined the LPGA tour, I would lead the tour in average drive, and it wouldn't be close. They would proceed to crush me from that point (I have never been great around the green), but the point stands.

This isn't sexism, its science.

Expand  

Which is why I said it is extremely unlikely. And I couldn't agree more on Brittney Griner.

If a woman were to make it, it would be as a sniper (e.g. Kyle Korver or JJ Reddick). Of course, even the skinniest snipers in the NBA are quite strong. A woman who would be of comparable strength, almost certainly wouldn't be a sniper, or at least not trained as one. Which is why it is so unlikely (except as a marketing ploy). But "never" is a very long time and tail events happen, so I wouldn't say "never". But not in the next 10 years.

[Darth_Raichu]

  On 2/25/2021 at 11:59 PM, $20 on joe vs dan said:

thanks but not what I meant

Expand  

Not sure what you meant then.  Beyond this case though, Biden's executive order opened the door wide open for more cases like this.

  On 2/26/2021 at 12:42 AM, BrickLover80 said:

Considering the dollars involved, that's not gonna happen. The opposite might. And would be allowed under NBA rules. You don't have to be male to play in the NBA. Of course, that's extremely unlikely to happen (except as a marketing ploy).

I don't know about the case in question but at the Olympic level, the transgender athletes have to adhere to strict testosterone testing. Google "Semenya". I imagine the same would apply to US college sports. Real life is more complicated than either side in these culture wars makes it out to be.

Expand  

Trans female to male athletes should definitely participate in NBA.  Why should the NBA care about genders? As long as the athletes can perform on the courts at the NBA level, they should stay in the roster.

IIRC the Olympics Committee is still not 100% onboard on this and there is ample room for challenges.

[$20 on joe vs dan]

re picture comment; I was thinking if the picture of the transgender athletes show them to be clearly bigger and likely stronger/faster than all their competition...then the unfairness of it would be hard to overlook. I realize the issue is much more complex than any overt difference...

[$20 on joe vs dan]

  On 2/26/2021 at 1:22 AM, Darth_Raichu said:

Not sure what you meant then.  Beyond this case though, Biden's executive order opened the door wide open for more cases like this.

Trans female to male athletes should definitely participate in NBA.  Why should the NBA care about genders? As long as the athletes can perform on the courts at the NBA level, they should stay in the roster.

IIRC the Olympics Committee is still not 100% onboard on this and there is ample room for challenges.

Expand  

but to have fair access to NBA, then you have to have fair access to collegiate sports, and to have fair access there, then high schools, junior high, elementary and local sports leagues

ultimately I don't think it's a science issue or even a fairness issue...the crux of the argument  is...how much should the will of the many bend for the will of the few

[fuzzy_bricks]

  On 2/26/2021 at 1:46 AM, $20 on joe vs dan said:

but to have fair access to NBA, then you have to have fair access to collegiate sports, and to have fair access there, then high schools, junior high, elementary and local sports leagues

ultimately I don't think it's a science issue or even a fairness issue...the crux of the argument  is...how much should the will of the many bend for the will of the few

Expand  

It is science issue, otherwise we wouldn’t have split women and men up to begin with. 

[Darth_Raichu]

  On 2/26/2021 at 12:47 AM, Alpinemaps said:

 

Sure is interesting. My mom, who is in her early 79s, a Woodstock hippy, liberal as the day is long, progressive for LGBQ+ rights and an original member of the Women’s Lib movement (all her words), is having a tough time with this issue.

So far, she seems to be coming down on the side of those students. She does see it as an unfair advantage and wrong for the women to have to compete against the transgender women. She feels like this is a set back of 50 years.

 

Expand  

If gender is a social construct and the male to female transgenders are to have the same rights as women, then this whole thing looks pretty clear cut

But again, to me this is something that the women need to sort out.  It is already well established the male sports in the US (on any level) cannot exclude people based on genders and/or sexual preferences.

  On 2/26/2021 at 1:05 AM, $20 on joe vs dan said:

I mean, how would locker rooms work?

Expand  

Just like restrooms in California?

[Darth_Raichu]

  On 2/26/2021 at 1:43 AM, $20 on joe vs dan said:

re picture comment; I was thinking if the picture of the transgender athletes show them to be clearly bigger and likely stronger/faster than all their competition...then the unfairness of it would be hard to overlook. I realize the issue is much more complex than any overt difference...

Expand  

Eh, if I were the lawyer I would say visual comparison is a moot point.  Some biologically female athletes look bigger and stronger than a lot of biologically male people

 

  On 2/26/2021 at 1:46 AM, $20 on joe vs dan said:

ultimately I don't think it's a science issue or even a fairness issue...the crux of the argument  is...how much should the will of the many bend for the will of the few

Expand  

Which one is the many and which one is the few?  As shown in that 2nd article, 1 of the girls suing is clearly a minority

[$20 on joe vs dan]

  On 2/26/2021 at 1:58 AM, Darth_Raichu said:

 

Just like restrooms in California?

Expand  

so as inconsistent and confusing as the recycling options?

[$20 on joe vs dan]

  On 2/26/2021 at 2:31 AM, LegoLegend420 said:

that's not true. if you're good they'll find you.  it's rare but lebron james, shawn kemp.  it's 100 % a science issue.  men are more capable physically but lack in other departments.  I mean that's why they split sports up.   to make it fair for the competitors involved?  right? 

Expand  

i am just focusing on the logistical issues involved.  Just in terms of locker rooms and showers/bathrooms...most programs cannot afford to make the necessary infrastructure changes and will end up restricting access to the many to accommodate the few...and thus alienating the transgender athlete even more...thus causing an unfair emotional trauma.

[KShine]

  On 2/26/2021 at 2:49 AM, $20 on joe vs dan said:

i am just focusing on the logistical issues involved.  Just in terms of locker rooms and showers/bathrooms...most programs cannot afford to make the necessary infrastructure changes and will end up restricting access to the many to accommodate the few...and thus alienating the transgender athlete even more...thus causing an unfair emotional trauma.

Expand  

Emotional trauma is the de facto currency in todays society.