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No Vorys; Be Happy


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9 hours ago, chaozz said:

Anyone hire a attorney to reply to these vory letters, Where on letter number #2 A lot of the claims for control i can prove WM, Kohls should be banned from selling lego for how the ship.

 

You should read through the thread you are replying to...

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On 3/1/2022 at 8:03 AM, Banjoman said:

A little update.....I hired an attorney (teaches Trademark law at a major law school) who has reached out and had some back and forth contact with Vorys....our approach was to be pretty open in that I buy from authorized retailers including Lego, many times at full price,  I hold until they are unavailable on these platforms, and then I resell, with fulfillment through Walmart or another AUTHORIZED Lego retailer.  I voluntarily sent them a month of receipts showing $25K in legit purchases from Amazon/Walmart.   I have specifically asked how long I would need to hold inventory to be considered a retailer vs the need to be an authorized seller (and requested approval to be an authorized seller if required for these type of purchases.)  It seems a disclaimer of this was is being RESOLD as repurchased and as a collectors item.  

I hope I wasn't too open but sort of dumbed it down to anyone in the world can walk in Walmart and buy a set (or 200 of a set) and stick it in storage for two years and then resell it for twice the value.  I had pretty high volume (probably much smaller than people on here) , but I do not know that they can see that.  I also think they target the non-WFS or FBS sales where we ship and manage customer service.   Still waiting on the requested clarification, and we may not get it.    They did make it sound like if I immediately stopped buying, they would gladly let me sell out my legit inventory...but again no full clarification.

 

Our attorney also had a conversation with the attorney at Vorys a couple weeks ago and said it was positive for the most part.  He was appreciative of what he called a very “nuanced” response letter and that he thinks might be well-received by Lego.  After our attorney sent a recap of the conversation and I spent some time reading between the lines I came to the conclusion that Lego has a problem with us selling newer items.  For us this is only true for CMFs... everything else we buy and hold like yourself.  We also don't sell the newer ones on Walmart I'm thinking the Vorys algorithm is quite broad.  

One thing I thought was strange was he didn't want to discuss the legal merit of their letter.  Maybe this is normal?  It's been my thought all along that if this did end up in court that much of the case law they source in their letters is a stretch at best when applied to our situation (and our attorney agreed).   

We're supposed to hear back from him this week.  Hopefully their ask is something that won't impact us very much and we can move on, however, I suspect it won't be that easy.  We're not willing to concede very much because... A. we've done nothing wrong... B. We've been a brand ambassador for Lego for 15+ years and C. a ruling against us would set a bad precedent for the First sales doctrine and reselling in general.   

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55 minutes ago, SleepingGiant said:

Our attorney also had a conversation with the attorney at Vorys a couple weeks ago and said it was positive for the most part.  He was appreciative of what he called a very “nuanced” response letter and that he thinks might be well-received by Lego.  After our attorney sent a recap of the conversation and I spent some time reading between the lines I came to the conclusion that Lego has a problem with us selling newer items.  For us this is only true for CMFs... everything else we buy and hold like yourself.  We also don't sell the newer ones on Walmart I'm thinking the Vorys algorithm is quite broad.  

One thing I thought was strange was he didn't want to discuss the legal merit of their letter.  Maybe this is normal?  It's been my thought all along that if this did end up in court that much of the case law they source in their letters is a stretch at best when applied to our situation (and our attorney agreed).   

We're supposed to hear back from him this week.  Hopefully their ask is something that won't impact us very much and we can move on, however, I suspect it won't be that easy.  We're not willing to concede very much because... A. we've done nothing wrong... B. We've been a brand ambassador for Lego for 15+ years and C. a ruling against us would set a bad precedent for the First sales doctrine and reselling in general.   

Thinking outside the box:  is there a way for your attorney to ask Vorys if LEGO's main concern is people selling knock off brands in the US (especially via Walmart) ?

Perhaps LEGO hired Vorys primarily to fight sellers of fake brands.  Vorys did not know any better and/or could not tell any different.  So Vorys casted very wide net that caught every other sellers in it.

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57 minutes ago, SleepingGiant said:

 

We're supposed to hear back from him this week.  Hopefully their ask is something that won't impact us very much and we can move on, however, I suspect it won't be that easy.  We're not willing to concede very much because... A. we've done nothing wrong... B. We've been a brand ambassador for Lego for 15+ years and C. a ruling against us would set a bad precedent for the First sales doctrine and reselling in general.   

If your not going to given in maybe we should team up with your account and the couple we have, Split fee's our stuff is all legit, even have huge bulk sales from legoland. 

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15 minutes ago, vasp said:

I'm in.

Some reason it would let me PM anyone...

 

I kinda know how they work and from searching previous cases they mostly only filed against sellers of Mary Kay and herbel life MLM products that are never sold outside the company.so that's easy to stop. 

Most people get up to 6 letters but nothing after that. This is with never contacting them, Which on your own you should never do. we mostly only do DISCO lego ..unless the holidays when something is hot, I got images of Wamart shipping large falcon with slapping fedex label on the directly on the product, WM and Kohls shipping lego in plastic bags, 

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3 minutes ago, chaozz said:

Some reason it would let me PM anyone...

 

I kinda know how they work and from searching previous cases they mostly only filed against sellers of Mary Kay and herbel life MLM products that are never sold outside the company.so that's easy to stop. 

Most people get up to 6 letters but nothing after that. This is with never contacting them, Which on your own you should never do. we mostly only do DISCO lego ..unless the holidays when something is hot, I got images of Wamart shipping large falcon with slapping fedex label on the directly on the product, WM and Kohls shipping lego in plastic bags, 

I have to ask, what in the world is DISCO lego ?

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1 hour ago, Darth_Raichu said:

Thinking outside the box:  is there a way for your attorney to ask Vorys if LEGO's main concern is people selling knock off brands in the US (especially via Walmart) ?

Perhaps LEGO hired Vorys primarily to fight sellers of fake brands.  Vorys did not know any better and/or could not tell any different.  So Vorys casted very wide net that caught every other sellers in it.

I submitted that question but to this point it hasn't been answered.  This whole situation just feels like a giant money making scheme to me.  Here's how I picture this all got started ....

(my opinion only)

Vorys hires a smart guy to track a specific reseller online to help win "a" case.  Light bulb goes off and they develop a software that can track a multitude of products and resellers for future cases.  Being the leaches they are, sit around a table and say "Time to cash in and bro down!".  They put together a PowerPoint with loose case law and a broad list of accusations that could apply to many different brands and head on down to the local trade show.  Meanwhile, one of the attorneys developing said master plan calls his buddy from law school over at AmazonSellersLawyers.com (more on this later) and tells him to add content to their website claiming to combat the Vorys letters.  Saying something to the effect of "This is going to be big! Don't miss out!" and jokingly asks for a referral fee.  

Walking around the the trade show is a poor innocent Lego representative minding his own business when all of a sudden a Vorys monkey pops out and does his sales dance.  Beating him down with fancy charts and lawyer speak ... using words like streamlined, cost effective and produces made up RESULTS!  until he finally agrees to "talk to his manager".   

The Lego manager decides to employee this strategy, not because they want to sue a bunch of unauthorized resellers, its because they want to be able to tell their pissed off and winey authorized resellers they are doing something to help them compete. 

(exit opinion)

As for AmazonSellersLawyers.com, I took advantage of their free consultation and man was I impressed!  I never actually got to talk to one of their attorneys but their sales team had all the right answers ... and for a flat fee of $3500!  How could I pass this up!?  In all seriousness though, they did nothing wrong, it was just my gut telling me something wasn't right after they called me 3 straight days seemingly begging for my retainer.  I had to tell them I retained someone else to get her to stop calling.  She also made it seem like they were very friendly with the Vorys which turned me off ... I wanted a shark, not a minnow.  

Regardless of my opinion it's pretty easy to see who's the main beneficiary from sending hundreds of C&D letters ... Vorys.  I'm sure their eControl is working quite well ... resellers with very little stake are dropping out with nothing more than a whine and the outright thieves run and hide.  These numbers are then presented as proof to whatever story needs to be told.   The fact that Lego hasn't sued anyone selling legitimate Lego product tells me dragging a bunch of people to court is not their intent and why we're choosing to hold our ground.  

When I was a kid Lego was a "Toy"  but now as an adult its a "Collectible".  You can't have collectibles without a secondary market and with that comes the reseller.  Lego should be embracing us and the value we add to their brand name.  Lego customers will continue to pay inflated prices as long as the perceived value continues to go up.   You're welcome.

 

Vorys planning their pitch meeting to Lego...

CareerBuilder.com: Monkey Business (Up - Down Profitability) GIF | Gfycat

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6 minutes ago, SleepingGiant said:

I submitted that question but to this point it hasn't been answered.  This whole situation just feels like a giant money making scheme to me.  Here's how I picture this all got started ....

(my opinion only)

Vorys hires a smart guy to track a specific reseller online to help win "a" case.  Light bulb goes off and they develop a software that can track a multitude of products and resellers for future cases.  Being the leaches they are, sit around a table and say "Time to cash in and bro down!".  They put together a PowerPoint with loose case law and a broad list of accusations that could apply to many different brands and head on down to the local trade show.  Meanwhile, one of the attorneys developing said master plan calls his buddy from law school over at AmazonSellersLawyers.com (more on this later) and tells him to add content to their website claiming to combat the Vorys letters.  Saying something to the effect of "This is going to be big! Don't miss out!" and jokingly asks for a referral fee.  

Walking around the the trade show is a poor innocent Lego representative minding his own business when all of a sudden a Vorys monkey pops out and does his sales dance.  Beating him down with fancy charts and lawyer speak ... using words like streamlined, cost effective and produces made up RESULTS!  until he finally agrees to "talk to his manager".   

The Lego manager decides to employee this strategy, not because they want to sue a bunch of unauthorized resellers, its because they want to be able to tell their pissed off and winey authorized resellers they are doing something to help them compete. 

(exit opinion)

As for AmazonSellersLawyers.com, I took advantage of their free consultation and man was I impressed!  I never actually got to talk to one of their attorneys but their sales team had all the right answers ... and for a flat fee of $3500!  How could I pass this up!?  In all seriousness though, they did nothing wrong, it was just my gut telling me something wasn't right after they called me 3 straight days seemingly begging for my retainer.  I had to tell them I retained someone else to get her to stop calling.  She also made it seem like they were very friendly with the Vorys which turned me off ... I wanted a shark, not a minnow.  

Regardless of my opinion it's pretty easy to see who's the main beneficiary from sending hundreds of C&D letters ... Vorys.  I'm sure their eControl is working quite well ... resellers with very little stake are dropping out with nothing more than a whine and the outright thieves run and hide.  These numbers are then presented as proof to whatever story needs to be told.   The fact that Lego hasn't sued anyone selling legitimate Lego product tells me dragging a bunch of people to court is not their intent and why we're choosing to hold our ground.  

When I was a kid Lego was a "Toy"  but now as an adult its a "Collectible".  You can't have collectibles without a secondary market and with that comes the reseller.  Lego should be embracing us and the value we add to their brand name.  Lego customers will continue to pay inflated prices as long as the perceived value continues to go up.   You're welcome.

 

Vorys planning their pitch meeting to Lego...

CareerBuilder.com: Monkey Business (Up - Down Profitability) GIF | Gfycat

After hearing countless stories about lawyers and politicians, it would not surprise me if the truth is not far from your opinion.  The easy money is not made by going to court.

Also, from your other post: a "very nuanced response" and "might be well received by LEGO".  What attorney with strong case responds that way :P

 

 

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Also, from your other post: a "very nuanced response" and "might be well received by LEGO".  What attorney with strong case responds that way



I’m not saying that this is what’s happening here, but I’d be happy to let an opposing party think that things are something other than they actually are if they’ve misjudged a situation and are giving me all the rope that I would need to turn around and hang them.


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1 minute ago, chaozz said:

You know AmazonSellersLawyers.com plays both sides of the fence, In their facebook group they where called out, They sent this guy a C&D but at the same time  gave him a consult to fight the claim.

 

I wouldn’t hire an attorney that employs their marketing strategy. Comes out as cheap, desperate and dishonest 

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9 minutes ago, redcell said:

 


I’m not saying that this is what’s happening here, but I’d be happy to let an opposing party think that things are something other than they actually are if they’ve misjudged a situation and are giving me all the rope that I would need to turn around and hang them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Point.  See this is how you know I am not an attorney :)

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