COVID-19 / Coronavirus Discussion

[Shortbus311]

Modly was a fool for relieving him of command when a quiet reprimand would have sufficed and has now resigned in disgrace. This is a global pandemic that compromised the TR and clearly impacts the broader safety of ports where they are docked. Not saying something could have cost lives.

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/07/829107952/modly-reportedly-submits-resignation-as-acting-navy-chief-over-warship-skipper-f

I still believe that he was right to be relieved. There is protocol in place. You bring your concerns to your supervisor, if your supervisor doesn't listen then you take it to their supervisor and on up until someone listens. You never ever discuss it or bring it up to those junior to you or the public.

Like the other poster said, he knew full well what would happen to him once he sent that letter and I guess that he still thought it was the right thing to do. But that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be punished for his actions.

[$20 on joe vs dan]

18 minutes ago, Shortbus311 said:

I still believe that he was right to be relieved. There is protocol in place. You bring your concerns to your supervisor, if your supervisor doesn't listen then you take it to their supervisor and on up until someone listens. You never ever discuss it or bring it up to those junior to you or the public.

Like the other poster said, he knew full well what would happen to him once he sent that letter and I guess that he still thought it was the right thing to do. But that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be punished for his actions.

DAngit..I keep thinking "What would Captain Kirk had done?"

Is it lame to have fictional characters so embedded in our psyche...

My other random thought on this is that the world needs super heroes right now

...and I'm not being coy; but there is truth in the phrase with great power comes great responsibility...and I am not talking about the power to fly or super human strength...I'm talking about individuals with real power...money, influence, celebrity...to step up and use their power to help the world....if not now...when?

This isn't about the real heroes on the front lines in ICUs...more about those who have the means to step up. As a pretty lady in white once said..."This is our desperate hour" 

[crayxlp]

On 4/4/2020 at 3:27 AM, Ed Mack said:

Enough with the negative rhetoric.  Plenty of mistakes to go around with this situation.  Being cocky about lack of cases in a country is silly and nearsighted.  At any time, your luck can run out.  One thing I am confident of though is that the US will survive and be stronger for it in the long run.  We will learn who our friends our and respond accordingly.  

my point was perhaps rather rude but accurate and straight to the point. You (more than anybody else) learned of all the stupid mistakes your gov / entities did.. like CDC insisting that only their own manufactured tests should be used (although they failed miserably). I already said everything that could be said abour the highest commander in chief, no reason to repeat it again.

I sincerely hope that you will get in under the control although the general situation in US is much more difficult against the other regions in the world, just in no particular order: sane ppl in Europe just keep laughing and tapping their foreheads HOW can possible the NRA raise protest in this crisis against closing guns shops.. from "our" point of view totally incomprehensible. Several US states issued regulations and orders to keep social distance, still many due to a perfect weather totally ignored it on the basis "nobody aka state is going to tell me what to do".. practices that proved helpful with fighting this in other areas of the world were at first totally ignored or lightweighted in the US .. to become 3-5 weeks later relevant. 

YES.. US suffer from the inherited feeling that they are the best in the world (see the CDC mention "only our tests" - losing a month) to other things. There is no question that you will get through all of this but at WHAT cost...  (given that for a full month and more nobody relevant took any inspiration from the world around how they fight this on the other side of the world).. And that is pretty much what I have been saying all the time.. ludicrous, blind faith, feel of superiority (we do not need anybody else to teach us).  

Edited April 8, 2020 by crayxlp

[$20 on joe vs dan]

7 minutes ago, crayxlp said:

my point was perhaps rather rude but accurate and straight to the point. You (more than anybody else) learned of all the stupid mistakes your gov / entities did.. like CDC insisting that only their own manufactured tests should be used (although they failed miserably). I already said everything that could be said abour the highest commander in chief, no reason to repeat it again.

I sincerely hope that you will get in under the control although the general situation in US is much more difficult against the other regions in the world, just in no particular order: sane ppl in Europe just keep laughing and tapping their foreheads HOW can possible the NRA raise protest in this crisis against closing guns shops.. from "our" point of view totally incomprehensible. Several US states issued regulations and orders to keep social distance, still many due to a perfect weather totally ignored it on the basis "nobody aka state is going to tell me what to do".. practices that proved helpful with fighting this in other areas of the world were at first totally ignored or lightweighted in the US .. to become 3-5 weeks later relevant. 

YES.. US suffer from the inherited feeling that they are the best in the world (see the CDC mention "only our tests" - losing a month) to other things. There is no question that you will get through all of this but at WHAT cost...  (given that for a full month and more nobody relevant took any inspiration from the world around how they fight this on the other side of the world).. And that is pretty much what I have been saying all the time.. ludicrous, blind faith, feel of superiority (we do not need anybody else to teach us).  

C'mon...he's gonna turn the car around and we'll never get any ice cream

[exracer327]

4 hours ago, $20 on joe vs dan said:

What do folks think about the Captain of the Teddy Roosevelt?  Despite HOW it was done (which was a PR disaster) Should he have been removed from his position for doing what he did?

and let me add We are all pulling for Boris!

 

Amen for Boris, and everyone else who is sick.

re: the USS TR.  This has nothing to do with PR.  First we would like to believe that someone doesn't become captain of a $10-12 Billion warship (including aircraft) + all the support and escorts without understanding strategy.

When the issues with the ship became public the first question I asked my wife was, "How do we in the public know there is a problem with a fleet carrier?!"  No fleet carrier operates alone.  They are the focal point of a small Task Force of ships (escorts, support, and including an nuke attack submarine).  It doesn't matter that we're currently at peace.  The captain, in his effort to raise awareness, made his ship and support fleet vulnerable.  It doesn't matter how much you're hurting, you never admit vulnerability because someone stupid will take advantage of it.  For that reason alone he needs to be removed. 

Unless the captain was completely ignored by his superiors and THEY were the ones placing his command in jeopardy.  If that is the case, then he isn't the one that needs to go, but them.    He still should never have made the situation public.  I don't know how he'll ever be trusted with secrets again.

I caught Trump yesterday saying he hates for the captain to be removed from the navy because the guy has an otherwise stellar career.  So who knows...  

[crayxlp]

15 minutes ago, exracer327 said:

 

Amen for Boris, and everyone else who is sick.

re: the USS TR.  This has nothing to do with PR.  First we would like to believe that someone doesn't become captain of a $10-12 Billion warship (including aircraft) + all the support and escorts without understanding strategy.

When the issues with the ship became public the first question I asked my wife was, "How do we in the public know there is a problem with a fleet carrier?!"  No fleet carrier operates alone.  They are the focal point of a small Task Force of ships (escorts, support, and including an nuke attack submarine).  It doesn't matter that we're currently at peace.  The captain, in his effort to raise awareness, made his ship and support fleet vulnerable.  It doesn't matter how much you're hurting, you never admit vulnerability because someone stupid will take advantage of it.  For that reason alone he needs to be removed. 

Unless the captain was completely ignored by his superiors and THEY were the ones placing his command in jeopardy.  If that is the case, then he isn't the one that needs to go, but them.    He still should never have made the situation public.  I don't know how he'll ever be trusted with secrets again.

I caught Trump yesterday saying he hates for the captain to be removed from the navy because the guy has an otherwise stellar career.  So who knows...  

come on...  a couple of mins ago this article on cnn.com

President Donald Trump claimed Tuesday that he knows "for a fact" that the United States doesn’t actually have the highest number of coronavirus cases in the world, saying it's simply testing more than any other country -- a comment the coordinator of his White House coronavirus task force later clarified.

please try to explain to me what kind of math your president uses.. because .. really. any intelligent person the world simply does not GET IT.. Hopkins Uni (I guess its US-based) says that you have the most cases in the world, WHO states that..  so how should I read this message?

 

 

[exracer327]

14 minutes ago, crayxlp said:

my point was perhaps rather rude but accurate and straight to the point. You (more than anybody else) learned of all the stupid mistakes your gov / entities did.. like CDC insisting that only their own manufactured tests should be used (although they failed miserably). I already said everything that could be said abour the highest commander in chief, no reason to repeat it again.

I sincerely hope that you will get in under the control although the general situation in US is much more difficult against the other regions in the world, just in no particular order: sane ppl in Europe just keep laughing and tapping their foreheads HOW can possible the NRA raise protest in this crisis against closing guns shops.. from "our" point of view totally incomprehensible. Several US states issued regulations and orders to keep social distance, still many due to a perfect weather totally ignored it on the basis "nobody aka state is going to tell me what to do".. practices that proved helpful with fighting this in other areas of the world were at first totally ignored or lightweighted in the US .. to become 3-5 weeks later relevant. 

YES.. US suffer from the inherited feeling that they are the best in the world (see the CDC mention "only our tests" - losing a month) to other things. There is no question that you will get through all of this but at WHAT cost...  (given that for a full month and more nobody relevant took any inspiration from the world around how they fight this on the other side of the world).. And that is pretty much what I have been saying all the time.. ludicrous, blind faith, feel of superiority (we do not need anybody else to teach us).  

I couldn't find the article but it was about the sensitivity of Russian tests vs USA tests.  I don't recall the specific term but it basically said this: Russian test would flag as positive for covid-19 if it found 100,000 replications within the given sample size.  The USA test, using the same sample size, flags as positive for covid-19 with only 6250 replications.  Russia's numbers are WAY lower than the USA and yet, they're shut down just like we are.

Why is the USA experiencing an out-of-proportion number of positive cases?  Well, this might explain it: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html

Here is some info from wikipedia: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_testing)

Accuracy

In March 2020 China^[68] reported problems with accuracy in their test kits. In the United States, the test kits developed by the CDC had "flaws;" the government then removed the bureaucratic barriers that had prevented private testing.^[69]

Spain purchased test kits from China that were supposed to detect at least 80% of those infected and tested, but it was found that only 30% were detected.^[75]

80% of test kits the Czech Republic purchased from China gave wrong results.^[76][77]

Slovakia purchased 1.2 million test kits from China which were found to be inaccurate. Prime Minister Matovič suggested these be dumped into the Danube^[78].

The UK purchased 3.5 million test kits from China but in early April 2020 announced these were not usable.^[79][80]

 

The short of it is, we need to be praying for one another.  No one has a handle on this sucker and it'll be the death of us all unless we stop fighting and work together the best we can.  Every country is focusing on itself and competing with one another for much needed products and everyone is on edge.  We all need to take a deep breath and let it out slowly.  This too shall pass...

[crayxlp]

6 minutes ago, exracer327 said:

I couldn't find the article but it was about the sensitivity of Russian tests vs USA tests.  I don't recall the specific term but it basically said this: Russian test would flag as positive for covid-19 if it found 100,000 replications within the given sample size.  The USA test, using the same sample size, flags as positive for covid-19 with only 6250 replications.  Russia's numbers are WAY lower than the USA and yet, they're shut down just like we are.

Why is the USA experiencing an out-of-proportion number of positive cases?  Well, this might explain it: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html

Here is some info from wikipedia: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_testing)

Accuracy

In March 2020 China^[68] reported problems with accuracy in their test kits. In the United States, the test kits developed by the CDC had "flaws;" the government then removed the bureaucratic barriers that had prevented private testing.^[69]

Spain purchased test kits from China that were supposed to detect at least 80% of those infected and tested, but it was found that only 30% were detected.^[75]

80% of test kits the Czech Republic purchased from China gave wrong results.^[76][77]

Slovakia purchased 1.2 million test kits from China which were found to be inaccurate. Prime Minister Matovič suggested these be dumped into the Danube^[78].

The UK purchased 3.5 million test kits from China but in early April 2020 announced these were not usable.^[79][80]

 

The short of it is, we need to be praying for one another.  No one has a handle on this sucker and it'll be the death of us all unless we stop fighting and work together the best we can.  Every country is focusing on itself and competing with one another for much needed products and everyone is on edge.  We all need to take a deep breath and let it out slowly.  This too shall pass...

thanks for the rich information provided. Regarding the UK I believe that the kits ordered from China were rather "speed test" kits than the profound PCR kits. From our local experience the speed test kits proved to be like 80 % failure if used within first 3 days after an assumed exploitation. The original Chinese manufacturer in the enclosed "terms of use" suggested that they should be relevant AFTER 5 days.. but still.. they proved to be relevant after 8 days and more. this could be perhaps the same case that the sensitivity proves relevant after more days than previously advertised / expected.

Edited April 8, 2020 by crayxlp

[NIevo]

1 hour ago, crayxlp said:

come on...  a couple of mins ago this article on cnn.com

President Donald Trump claimed Tuesday that he knows "for a fact" that the United States doesn’t actually have the highest number of coronavirus cases in the world, saying it's simply testing more than any other country -- a comment the coordinator of his White House coronavirus task force later clarified.

please try to explain to me what kind of math your president uses.. because .. really. any intelligent person the world simply does not GET IT.. Hopkins Uni (I guess its US-based) says that you have the most cases in the world, WHO states that..  so how should I read this message?

 

 

Come on, anyone who thinks that the numbers coming out of China are accurate has no business voicing their opinion anywhere cause that's insane.  And WHO is a joke as we've already discussed.  Obviously we have the most "recorded" cases just cause we are the largest most populous country that is accurately keeping track.

Also, as a side note.  If you take out New York and New Jersey which I hate to be blunt but can only blame their current situation on themselves and not our fed gov., the US while still having the most "recorded" cases isn't even in the top 5 in deaths.  How some of you keep spouting off about how we are doomed is pathetic.  We have one of the lower death % rates of any developed country outside a small few.  I would say for the most part we are doing a pretty damn good job all things considered.

[NIevo]

1 hour ago, crayxlp said:

my point was perhaps rather rude but accurate and straight to the point. You (more than anybody else) learned of all the stupid mistakes your gov / entities did.. like CDC insisting that only their own manufactured tests should be used (although they failed miserably). I already said everything that could be said abour the highest commander in chief, no reason to repeat it again.

I sincerely hope that you will get in under the control although the general situation in US is much more difficult against the other regions in the world, just in no particular order: sane ppl in Europe just keep laughing and tapping their foreheads HOW can possible the NRA raise protest in this crisis against closing guns shops.. from "our" point of view totally incomprehensible. Several US states issued regulations and orders to keep social distance, still many due to a perfect weather totally ignored it on the basis "nobody aka state is going to tell me what to do".. practices that proved helpful with fighting this in other areas of the world were at first totally ignored or lightweighted in the US .. to become 3-5 weeks later relevant. 

YES.. US suffer from the inherited feeling that they are the best in the world (see the CDC mention "only our tests" - losing a month) to other things. There is no question that you will get through all of this but at WHAT cost...  (given that for a full month and more nobody relevant took any inspiration from the world around how they fight this on the other side of the world).. And that is pretty much what I have been saying all the time.. ludicrous, blind faith, feel of superiority (we do not need anybody else to teach us).  

"Sane" people in Europe?  You mean the area that has a far worse death rate then we do?  Come on, we all know you either honestly hate us, or are secretly jealous but it's getting pathetic with your constant attacks with no actual data or proof.

It would blow your mind that all the gun stores, restaurants (carry out/delivery) grocery stores, liquor stores🤣 and basically everything not a hair salon or clothing only store here are open, people are out riding bikes, going for walks, fishing, and generally living normal lives without dropping dead all over.  We have barely a 1% fatality rate but honestly most aren't even getting tested up until recently so it's probably well below 1%.

[Donut]

come on, it hasn't even been a day 🤯

[Alpinemaps]

Modly has resigned over his comments about the Captain of the TR


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/thomas-modly-resign-navy-secretary-captain-coronavirus-ship-letter-trump-a9453896.html

[NIevo]

3 hours ago, Mark Twain said:

 

 

Modly was a fool for relieving him of command when a quiet reprimand would have sufficed and has now resigned in disgrace. This is a global pandemic that compromised the TR and clearly impacts the broader safety of ports where they are docked. Not saying something could have cost lives.

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/07/829107952/modly-reportedly-submits-resignation-as-acting-navy-chief-over-warship-skipper-f

I feel as well as most military people I've heard from that he was 100% right in removing him from command but 100% wrong in belittling him the way he did.  That's why he ended up resigning.

1 minute ago, Alpinemaps said:

Modly has resigned over his comments about the Captain of the TR


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/thomas-modly-resign-navy-secretary-captain-coronavirus-ship-letter-trump-a9453896.html

Yeah, I think he resigned earlier today.  You posted that right as I responded above.

 

[Alpinemaps]

I’m not military but I work for the DoD. I agree that the Captain took a calculated risk, and knew he was putting his career on the line. And I think it was right for him to get canned.

Not right for Modly to take him over the coals though. Uncalled for and glad he’s gone.

[NIevo]

Interesting report out of China regarding the dead in Wuhan and counts being accurate.  Not sure of accuracy but shows how tough getting the truth out of China is.

https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/wuhan-cremations-04062020143043.html

[NIevo]

Not to downplay the seriousness of it, but can't see how this isn't scewing the numbers to cause more panic.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/birx-says-government-is-classifying-all-deaths-of-patients-with-coronavirus-as-covid-19-deaths-regardless-of-cause

[CsabaLazlo]

On 4/4/2020 at 10:53 PM, junkrigger said:

I am not an epidemiologist but as a research scientist (experimental physics, numerical analysis) I believe this article is interesting, it is a rather convoluted read. I would very much like to hear from others who have read this carefully, especially scientists who have more knowledge in this realm. 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/coronavirus-china-trail-leading-back-to-wuhan-labs/

Paper in Nature Medicine discounts the possibility of the disease originating in a lab

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

Quote

It is improbable that SARS-CoV-2 emerged through laboratory manipulation of a related SARS-CoV-like coronavirus. As noted above, the RBD of SARS-CoV-2 is optimized for binding to human ACE2 with an efficient solution different from those previously predicted. Furthermore, if genetic manipulation had been performed, one of the several reverse-genetic systems available for betacoronaviruses would probably have been used. However, the genetic data irrefutably show that SARS-CoV-2 is not derived from any previously used virus backbone. 

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by CsabaLazlo

[benjamin4172]

The WHO messed it up?....Really?

 

[Belac]

Looks like LEGO designed and made protective eye shields for medical personnel.   Lookin' Good LEGO:)

[$20 on joe vs dan]

5 hours ago, benjamin4172 said:

The WHO messed it up?....Really?

 

If the WHO's job is to PREVENT a pandemic...I would say they failed miserably.  Doesn't get any worse than 1 single city to the whole freakin world in 3 months.

Ofcourse this isn't fair since the WHO has almost no actual power outside of 3rd-world country regions. I would like the WHO to have the power to enforce travel restriction and possibly shut down main travel hubs: airports and train stations.

[$20 on joe vs dan]

Let's not fall for it.

As the US is entering it darkest weeks; I know it's human nature to seek out blame...and the White House is trying to focus that blame elsewhere (specifically China and WHO).

Yes, if your home is burning down due to wildfire...it's real easy to blame the original cause of the spark and the poor decisions that could not contain it.

BUT, if you home was 100 miles away and you had 1 month to prepare and the resources to do it...yes, there's plenty of blame to go around, but just focusing on the non-US ones is wrong.

Edited April 8, 2020 by $20 on joe vs dan

[CosmicSpeed]

On 4/4/2020 at 5:53 PM, junkrigger said:

I am not an epidemiologist but as a research scientist (experimental physics, numerical analysis) I believe this article is interesting, it is a rather convoluted read. I would very much like to hear from others who have read this carefully, especially scientists who have more knowledge in this realm. 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/coronavirus-china-trail-leading-back-to-wuhan-labs/

This is related to the public information discovered by laowhy86 on Patreon which was the video I posted.

I believe it is highly likely that because of the research done from from before 2017, gathering the bats for testing, having them known to carry SARS-like viruses from then until something happened late last year. 

The review does a better job at putting into text what laowhy discovered and that it isnt a final finger point at the source, but rather an overall delayed response by the CCP as to explain the true cause of the ourbreak...of which can be linked to their influence to the WHO and their delayed response.

I think it could been be something as simple as common research to identify these viruses BEFORE they impact humans, and because of an unknown amount of factors, be it hygiene issues when handling the bats or personnel not disposing of or being responsible enough to go into self quarantine once exposed to the bat urine or feces, SOMETHING happened. Information was delayed or not revealed in its entirety and we are here now because of overall mistrust in the CCP.

I am not a supporter of our President, but I don't thing you can solely put all of this on him.

[CosmicSpeed]

9 hours ago, NIevo said:

Not to downplay the seriousness of it, but can't see how this isn't scewing the numbers to cause more panic.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/birx-says-government-is-classifying-all-deaths-of-patients-with-coronavirus-as-covid-19-deaths-regardless-of-cause

Interesting that Fox is the one reporting that. 

[CosmicSpeed]

8 hours ago, CsabaLazlo said:

Paper in Nature Medicine discounts the possibility of the disease originating in a lab

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

 

It also how they word it. It might not have originated in a lab, as in a manufactured virus. But it could have been researched in a lab, of which these are known viruses that CAN affect humans when in close contact, and escaped from there. I appreciate that scientific publications are looking at all sides, but I am more thinking that this was just science horribly mismanaged.

[Ed Mack]

15 hours ago, crayxlp said:

my point was perhaps rather rude but accurate and straight to the point. You (more than anybody else) learned of all the stupid mistakes your gov / entities did.. like CDC insisting that only their own manufactured tests should be used (although they failed miserably). I already said everything that could be said abour the highest commander in chief, no reason to repeat it again.

I sincerely hope that you will get in under the control although the general situation in US is much more difficult against the other regions in the world, just in no particular order: sane ppl in Europe just keep laughing and tapping their foreheads HOW can possible the NRA raise protest in this crisis against closing guns shops.. from "our" point of view totally incomprehensible. Several US states issued regulations and orders to keep social distance, still many due to a perfect weather totally ignored it on the basis "nobody aka state is going to tell me what to do".. practices that proved helpful with fighting this in other areas of the world were at first totally ignored or lightweighted in the US .. to become 3-5 weeks later relevant. 

YES.. US suffer from the inherited feeling that they are the best in the world (see the CDC mention "only our tests" - losing a month) to other things. There is no question that you will get through all of this but at WHAT cost...  (given that for a full month and more nobody relevant took any inspiration from the world around how they fight this on the other side of the world).. And that is pretty much what I have been saying all the time.. ludicrous, blind faith, feel of superiority (we do not need anybody else to teach us).  

I am done listening to your drivel and anti-US rhetoric.  This is an American site and you are a guest here, so tread lightly.  As for the Czech Republic, you should thank the USA.  You would be speaking Russian without us.