eBay buyer protection question

[Deadfraggle]

I've seen some threads that address this issue from a sellar perspective but I'm asking as a buyer in this situation. I won an auction for Lego items on eBay. USPS shows delivered, but I did not receive the item. I enquired at my servicing post office and they have no packages waiting for me. They can only give me the answer that the postman left the package at my house. I live on a rural route.

The sellar seems like a nice guy, states he sells a lot of Lego online without issue. I don't want to screw him over, but I don't want to be out a couple hundred dollars either. I honestly don't know if the package was dropped off at the wrong house, someone helped themselves to it off the front porch ( I get lego deliveries several times a week, so I often have packages sitting out) or what happened to it. The sellar is implying that I'm trying to scam him, which I don't think is very fair, although I do empathize with him.

Do I have options here? If it shows delivered on the USPS tracker am I disqualified from the eBay or PayPal protections?

Edited January 4, 2015 by Deadfraggle

[DoNotInsertIntoMouth]

I have a couple of things I would think about:

 

- How long has it been? Alert the post office again and definitely keep talking to them about it. During the Christmas season, Scans are not even close to trustworthy with this company. Case and point:

 

1. I had one customer whose item showed that it was never checked in, never moved anywhere, looked like I just printed the label and never sent it. 2 weeks after, it just shows up at his door. 1 day after - Scans showed up (but with bogus dates and times).

 

2. Had about 15+ packages this year that weren't scanned at the first two places, then just showed up at the house.

 

3. Had two packages show delivered - but weren't. They were delivered several days later.

 

There are more, but the point is that USPS is literally awful at the one thing they do - deliver packages. So I would be skeptical that it was ever actually delivered. They aren't losing 8 BIllion a year because they are good at it...

 

At the post office, ask them if you have any packages in the pile "postage due". I constantly have stuff sent to me that gets accidentally or legitimately put in that pile, then they never give me a card telling me, or it just shows delivered. Make them look - this has happened multiple times.

 

As for the Ebay part - ask the seller if he bought insurance on it. I generally always do if its a big purchase for cases like this (I normally send more expensive items with FEDEX anyway since they are a real shipping company). I wouldn't open a buyer protection case until you try to work it out with him. He is justified to think it may be a scam - I get a couple scam messages a week. I would suggest calling him - ask for his phone number. People are way different behind email.

[zak001]

I've seen some threads that address this issue from a sellar perspective but I'm asking as a buyer in this situation. I won an auction for Lego items on eBay. USPS shows delivered, but I did not receive the item. I enquired at my servicing post office and they have no packages waiting for me. They can only give me the answer that the postman left the package at my house. I live on a rural route.

The sellar seems like a nice guy, states he sells a lot of Lego online without issue. I don't want to screw him over, but I don't want to be out a couple hundred dollars either. I honestly don't know if the package was dropped off at the wrong house, someone helped themselves to it off the front porch ( I get lego deliveries several times a week, so I often have packages sitting out) or what happened to it. The sellar is implying that I'm trying to scam him, which I don't think is very fair, although I do empathize with him.

Do I have options here? If it shows delivered on the USPS tracker am I disqualified from the eBay or PayPal protections?

 

If a seller is strongly implying to me that I'm a scammer, I lose all sympathy and immediately start looking for ways to ensure I'm made good in the transaction. Because a) preemptively crying "scammer" is a tactic of the actual scammer, as they want to buy time; and if you can't refrain from calling even the shadiest customers scammers, you are in the wrong business and it's doing everyone a favor to make that clear.

 

I'd open a case and say, "Hey, nothing personal, but I am out money and this is a necessary step to protect myself." You should be protected even if the package shows delivered (unless your signature is on a confirmation); the only difference will be whether PayPal/eBay covers the refund or the seller does.

[scuttfarkas]

I've seen some threads that address this issue from a sellar perspective but I'm asking as a buyer in this situation. I won an auction for Lego items on eBay. USPS shows delivered, but I did not receive the item. I enquired at my servicing post office and they have no packages waiting for me. They can only give me the answer that the postman left the package at my house. I live on a rural route.

The sellar seems like a nice guy, states he sells a lot of Lego online without issue. I don't want to screw him over, but I don't want to be out a couple hundred dollars either. I honestly don't know if the package was dropped off at the wrong house, someone helped themselves to it off the front porch ( I get lego deliveries several times a week, so I often have packages sitting out) or what happened to it. The sellar is implying that I'm trying to scam him, which I don't think is very fair, although I do empathize with him.

Do I have options here? If it shows delivered on the USPS tracker am I disqualified from the eBay or PayPal protections?

 

Contact the USPS office that your mail comes out of.  Contrary to most beliefs, they take missing/stolen/incompetent deliveries pretty seriously.  

[lodibricks]

This just happened to me as the seller, says "Delivered on porch" but the buyer never got it. 

The buyer just happened to be about 30 mins away and  I met her in person. She offered to pay for a 2nd set, and I believed her even before that. In this case, it was probably stolen off of the porch and I don't know if Priority Mail insurance covers that since they technically did their job delivering it. I ended up refunding for the first set and so I'm out and not the buyer.

[Jackson]

I wouldn't communicate with the seller by phone.  I would communicate through only eBay's message system so that all communication is documented and can be accessed by eBay customer service.

[c666187]

I wouldn't communicate with the seller by phone.  I would communicate through only eBay's message system so that all communication is documented and can be accessed by eBay customer service.

Some of the best advice you can get..

[wsuskee]

Yeah dont go the phone route.  I had some guy calling me day after day about a package that was delivered to his neighbor.  He hated his neighbor and wanted me to send another one out.  Since you are the buyer you should be okay as ebay normally favors the buyer.  Just make a claim and you should get your money back in a week or so.  

 

In the last year or so I have had a few packages listed as delivered but the buyer said they never got them.  Paypal every time decided in the favor of the buyer but refunded the money to the buyer but let me keep the money so paypal took the loss. Maybe this is because I am a powerseller for 15 years but it might be a case by case thing.   Twice now the buyer has been refunded then contacted me to say it finally arrived.  They even contacted paypal to return the money but they said the case is closed.  I call that a win win win as the buyer got the item for free, I got paid and paypal got screwed a triple win in my book.

[justafrog]

If the tracking shows delivered, you will not win an item-not-received case through either eBay or PayPal. And, frankly, if your postal people are unreliable, you have a bigger problem than just this set.

 

Ask the seller for a description of the packaging, and then go talk to the postal person who delivered it (based on the day it shows delivered). Sometimes they will remember packages, though at Christmas time your chances are slimmer.

 

Ask your neighbors if they received a package, and next time you order something, watch the tracking like a hawk and the second it shows "delivered" make sure you have it -- if not, be on your post office immediately.

 

If you are not reliably at home to pick up packages off your porch, you need to get a PO Box, security cameras, a secure drop box, or some other solution.

 

This is not the seller's problem -- they shipped, post office says they delivered it, you don't know that they didn't. At this point it truly is between you and your post office and whatever local criminal activity you have. Go ahead and file a police report while you're at it, enough reports of mail thieves will sometimes up patrol in your area, or result in some probation/parole searches for known offenders in your area.

 

Occasionally, eBay (don't know about PayPal) will do a courtesy refund to a buyer out of their own pocket, not the sellers, in these circumstances. You can call them and ask.

[imirish11]

Check with the neighbors. This seems to solve the problem more often than not.

[Deadfraggle]

So the seller escalated the case to eBay today who ruled in his favor about an hour later based on the tracking number showing delivered alone. From a sellers perspective I guess that's great news and eBay has your back if you track your packages. I can't really fault him as he obviously mailed the packages. I'm a little disappointed in eBay and /or PayPal for not stepping in and covering me as a buyer though. So much for the money back guarantee. The couple hundred dollar loss stings a bit.

[grackleflint]

One option if you funded the purchase through PayPal with a credit card is to contact the credit card company and file a claim through them. The credit card company may back you more and get you a refund.

 

eBay/PayPal hate this because it goes around them, they lose control and they will end up eating it themselves if your credit card company sides with you.

 

I personally haven't tried this myself as a buyer. I have had a buyer put in a claim via their credit card for something that was delivered 2 months prior (claimed unauthorized purchase). I ended up not having to pay for it so I'm not sure what happened in their investigation.

[gregpj]

One option if you funded the purchase through PayPal with a credit card is to contact the credit card company and file a claim through them. The credit card company may back you more and get you a refund.

eBay/PayPal hate this because it goes around them, they lose control and they will end up eating it themselves if your credit card company sides with you.

I personally haven't tried this myself as a buyer. I have had a buyer put in a claim via their credit card for something that was delivered 2 months prior (claimed unauthorized purchase). I ended up not having to pay for it so I'm not sure what happened in their investigation.

This is why I pay with my credit card rather than bank account. I keep my paypal balance at 0.

Explain to the credit card company that at best the product was stolen off your steps... But make it very clear that you did not receive the product purchased.

I've never used it for EBay, but I have used it for other online services where the vendor screwed up and refused to issue me a refund.

[jdmpartz]

First..Sorry that happened to you. It is never fun when something like that happens.

 

 

Coming from an experienced online seller an ALL channels, i can give you some advice.

 

The Bay and PP have pretty cut and dry rules when it comes to a situation like this.

 

- If the item is under $250 and has a valid tracking number from either USPS/UPS or Fedex, it does not require a signature.

The buyer will never win a case, for non-delivery if tracking shows "delivered" and the value under $250. Very cut and dry from PP point of view.

 

- If the item is over $250 , they must have a signature of receipt, and a valid tracking # showing the item was signed and delivered. 

In this case, if the item was delivered with-out signature, you can get your funds back pretty easy.

 

It seems the first method falls into your sale, and you may be stuck without the product or funds. Unfortunately.

 

Important...

Speak to your local post-master, file a federal theft report for your mail. They sometimes do reimburse or find the package. I personally have had to go this route. It takes weeks if not months, but it is better than nothing.

 

Also, personally call The Bay and speak to them, explain the situation. Tell them you would like at least Ebay (bucks) credit for the purchase to use again on a different seller. This has worked also in the past.

 

Hope any info helps!

 

 

[grackleflint]

This is why I pay with my credit card rather than bank account. I keep my paypal balance at 0.

 

 

Yes, I generally recommend that people should always fund eBay purchases with PayPal from a credit card only, never a PayPal balance or a direct transfer from your bank.

 

If you use an existing balance or do a bank transfer, you are letting eBay/PayPal be the sole judge and jury should something go wrong.

 

Myself, I have a second personal unverified (not tied to a bank account) PayPal account (perfectly within their rules) that I use for my purchases that always has a 0 balance and is funded by a credit card.

 

Haven't yet had to make a claim with PayPal Credit (Bill Me Later) so I don't know how much they are on your side if something should go wrong. Maybe someone here can enlighten us.

[justafrog]

The Bay and PP have pretty cut and dry rules when it comes to a situation like this.

 

- If the item is under $250 and has a valid tracking number from either USPS/UPS or Fedex, it does not require a signature.

The buyer will never win a case, for non-delivery if tracking shows "delivered" and the value under $250. Very cut and dry from PP point of view.

 

- If the item is over $250 , they must have a signature of receipt, and a valid tracking # showing the item was signed and delivered. 

In this case, if the item was delivered with-out signature, you can get your funds back pretty easy.

 

 

 

 

$750 as of a few months ago.

[justafrog]

In the case of credit card chargebacks, PayPal will back the seller if the seller can show proof of delivery, as in this case. PayPal themselves may argue the case with the CC company so you may or may not get your money back.

[jdmpartz]

$750 as of a few months ago.

 

$750 is for The Bay policies only, and it is pulling teeth having them honor it.

 

If you paid with PP sig needed for $250 and up.

[justafrog]

$750 is for The Bay policies only, and it is pulling teeth having them honor it.

 

If you paid with PP sig needed for $250 and up.

 

Effective October 8 June 17, PayPal policy update page (they haven't corrected their main policy page yet):

 

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/archive-policies-full

 

They have updated their user agreement, however, to reflect the new $750 limit:

 

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full

 

 

Edited for date effective.

Edited to add user agreement link.

[grackleflint]

Regardless of the stated limits, anything valuable should have signature confirmation. 

 

If you are shipping anything valuable (over $250), an extra $2.50 for a signature shouldn't be something that should deter you or materially affect your profit margin. It's the single best thing in your favor should something go wrong. I also PDF/save all shipping labels so someone can't claim that I sent it to the wrong address.

[justafrog]

Regardless of the stated limits, anything valuable should have signature confirmation. 

 

If you are shipping anything valuable (over $250), an extra $2.50 for a signature shouldn't be something that should deter you or materially affect your profit margin. It's the single best thing in your favor should something go wrong. I also PDF/save all shipping labels so someone can't claim that I sent it to the wrong address.

 

That's a personal preference issue, for sure. Some folks have a higher risk meter for insured vs. uninsured, sig conf. vs. non sig-confirmation.

 

However, that preference doesn't alter PayPal's rules, which is what I was illustrating.

 

I don't bother with sig confiration on packages under $750. I do sometimes insure packages under $750, which is a better bang for my buck as far as I'm concerned, depending on circumstances/destination.

[grackleflint]

I don't bother with sig confiration on packages under $750. I do sometimes insure packages under $750, which is a better bang for my buck as far as I'm concerned, depending on circumstances/destination.

 

Yes, I believe (at least in the past), that with USPS insurance over $100, it required a signature upon delivery so you can get the best of both worlds by just buying insurance. Not sure if that still applies now.

[justafrog]

Yes, I believe (at least in the past), that with USPS insurance over $100, it required a signature upon delivery so you can get the best of both worlds by just buying insurance. Not sure if that still applies now.

 

I'm not either as I don't use and wouldn't use USPS insurance - too expensive, and although I've heard it's improved, they were pretty dreadful back when I was using them 10 or so years back.

 

I currently use Stamps.com insurance through my subscription there. eBay also offers good insurance, can't remember the name of the company, at much better rates than USPS.

 

Stamps.com and eBay have not required signature on anything I've insured through them thus far.*

 

*Caveat: I do require signature over $750, so I don't know for sure past that price point whether the insurance through those two companies would automatically require signature if I hadn't already opted into it.

[Deadfraggle]

Thanks guys for all the info. Some really good dialogue here that perhaps we can all benefit from. I know I've gained some personal insight that will undoubtedly serve me well as I make more sales myself in the future. On the buying side, I think in the future, if it's a larger, more expensive purchase, perhaps I will communicate with the seller to only ship signature confirmation or hold for pick-up. I don't mind paying a couple extra dollars to the seller to protect myself against potential loss. 

[imirish11]

Did you check with the neighbors? Would be worth it to talk to a few, and if nobody has it, then it's still worth it to spread word so ppl are more vigilant.