LEGO Bans - Open Discussion

[TheBrickClique]

As for operating with a single account to stay within the vendor’s technically-enforced limits, I believe this is the current state of things.
 

Cliff notes: you’ll be fine as long as you don’t go on a spending spree at Target.com, and try not to bring attention to your buying patterns by dealing with online customer service for small gripes that can be dealt with in store instead.

Target - the easiest place to get banned based simply on purchase volume online and the most aggressive against resellers in store — employees trained to identify resellers loading up carts for example.  Can still use red card in store after online ban, but using with a new email account will result in repeat ban — start receiving auto cancellations and email about possible issues including payment purchase method.  Some people have bans lifted after a period in timeout. Others indefinitely. The amount of purchases that may identify you as a reseller and get a ban? One data point: I have been unable to purchase online going on 18 months now after two months of $5k purchases on the red card. Same red card still works fine in store.
 

LEGO shop at home — with the purchase limits mechanics implemented a few years ago, it is much more difficult to get the SAH ban hammer. If you exceed a limit on any item based on past purchases of the same item, they will cancel your entire order. Be warned that if they cancel an order with a VIP Rewards purchase, the reward is not automatically credited back to your account. Also, if they cancel an item due to inventory issues, the system still tracks it as qty purchased. Qty purchased in brick and mortar stores that are purchased with VIP accounts are not counted towards SAH limits and and limits in store are done at the individual store’s discretion. If you do have to call customer service to resolve an issue, they do have easy visibility to all of your previous orders and will make comments about you “really liking LEGOs”.  No indication that that is how the ban process starts, but unless you really have an issue that needs CS, might be best to just let the small things go. 
 

Amazon — shop away. Their limits are tracked to the second on a 168-hour FIFO.  Limits apply and are tracked in that window only to items sold and shipped by Amazon.com. Buy as many third party items as you wish. Anecdotal stories of bans for excessive returns, but no clear information on the metrics used. Generally, probably best to save the returns for the really bad boxes.  Creating multiple accounts will get noticed and is the quickest way to get the warning shot emails. 
 

Barnes and Noble — similar to LEGO, has a five qty per item lifetime limit online. Exceed that amount and just that item will be cancelled from the order. No reports of bans. In store purchases do not appear to be tied to online memberships as far as adding to your 5-count quantity.  
 

Walmart — most LEGO are limited to two per order, but they won’t say how often that limit is reset.  Doing a couple of multiple limit orders in the same day has worked.  Doing dozens has resulted in order cancellations of those specific items but no bans that I am aware of. Generally, I have found one limit order per day has never resulted in a cancellation. 
 

ShopDisney — some items have limits but they are selectively enforced. If you put in multiple limit orders at the same time, they might cancel those items. If you space them out, they will be fine. I ordered a dozen castles (limit one per customer) last year and they all went through. Sometimes two in two consecutive days. 
 

Costco — has item limits on some items, but I haven’t seen any on LEGOs. Even with items with limits, possible to space them out without issue.  In store limits are usually “per day”. 
 

Best Buy — unsure on LEGO as I’ve never pushed the limits on them. In the past, I would make 50 purchases at a time of 2-dollar items that had limits and they would all go through.  I have tried to make multiple purchases of Xbox consoles and those were cancelled.  So YMMV. But no reports of bans.

Anyways, those are my observations.

[Mos_Eisley]

42 minutes ago, Bold-Arrow said:

 

The day Lego wants/begs resellers to buy their product is the day Lego investment goes down the tube . If the end consumer doesn't want it who will the investor sell to ?

It was only a few years ago that LEGO store managers were catering to their large reseller customers.  And only a few years before that LEGO popularity was only a fraction of what it is today. All the while, people who were buying and selling LEGO were making way better returns than they are today. LEGO doesn't have to be the number one brand in the world for people to make money from it. Obviously, there would need to be fewer resellers than there are now, but that will happen anyway if LEGO loses its general popularity. 

[Bold-Arrow]

21 minutes ago, Mos_Eisley said:

It was only a few years ago that LEGO store managers were catering to their large reseller customers.  And only a few years before that LEGO popularity was only a fraction of what it is today. All the while, people who were buying and selling LEGO were making way better returns than they are today. LEGO doesn't have to be the number one brand in the world for people to make money from it. Obviously, there would need to be fewer resellers than there are now, but that will happen anyway if LEGO loses its general popularity. 

That is true . Lego was on the verge of  rising back  then. IMHO if they reverse policy it would be because the brand is declining which doesn't bode well for the secondary market . 

[lostontheverglow]

3 hours ago, waddamon said:

All businesses have have their growth and then contraction.  Lego continues to sell a luxury toy that is very, very expensive.  They have enacted price controls which if they had corporate headquarters in the good OK USA would have them facing government prosecution.  I believe they are producing too many sets from too many themes.  The market is becoming saturated.  They are cannibalizing their own sales with too many products.  They are making lots of one of sets and also losing the creativity of the toy, which is what made it popular to begin with.  The cause of their salvation was licensed themes, it will be their demise.  They could learn a lot from afols and the mocs they build, creative.  Greed and arrogance are going to catch up with them.  If I wasn't an investor I would not be spending these kind of dollars for the vast quantity of new sets.  I make a very healthy living and still wouldn't do it.  People on this site buy extras to sell to fund their hobby.  Lego istarting to ban these people, their actual target market. It is idiocy.  Those are some thoughts.

With so many different building blocks and knock offs in the market now, Lego has no choice but to expand further. To have the next big product. Is it going to cannibalize their sales? Sure, a bit for a short period of time. But the great news is that Lego can stop production for a set the moment a certain set's sales are being cannibalized by newer sets (which is why sets retire).

Like I mentioned, it's either adapt to the market or crash. I think the release of more sets is in response to that. Of course there is some level of greed involved. It's a business. For the brand image they have, I think their prices are completely acceptable (even if they are high). Will that greed catch up with them? Maybe. And if it does, people will stop buying poorer quality sets or sets in general due to hyper choice..not being able to decide what to buy due to there being too many products. Then Lego will readjust their strategy and everything will be right in the world.

Banning people is something I think they are very smart to do. It stands behind their core values. If you look at their mission and vision statements, they make it clear that they want people to enjoy their product and encourage play. Not doing anything to stop people who buy out all the shelves to sell back to the consumers for 2x 3x 4x etc. MRSP will make the company look bad. Plain and simple.

[gregpj]

5 hours ago, waddamon said:

I believe they are producing too many sets from too many themes.  The market is becoming saturated.  They are cannibalizing their own sales with too many products. 

I completely agree with this... I have heard it countless times that are simply too many sets to choose from and collect. I honestly believe that they are losing sales (maybe not enough to matter) as some parents tap out and just admit they can't get them all... so they get none at all of a certain theme. I know I have - we used to buy one copy of every Super Hero for ourselves, but stopped with last years sets.. too many repeat figs, too many sets.

 

5 hours ago, waddamon said:

They are making lots of one of sets and also losing the creativity of the toy, which is what made it popular to begin with.

This is a tough one... the sets are arguably more creative than ever, but so many parents think that LEGO is just regular old blocks. I heard it all the time selling the creative brick boxes... but what I say to them was don't underestimate the power of a child's imagination. Big parts, small parts, they create amazing things no matter what. Parents who realize this (or have witnessed it - my kids build all kinds of non-bionicle things out of those parts) still think LEGO is one of the best toys around and worth the price of admission.

What I really don't get is LEGO's unbalanced approach... how hard is it to have company-wide policies and enforce them for the biggest toy maker in the world? And I realize little slip ups happen, but we get so many contradictory stories on BP that it continues to amaze me.

 

[Brenner]

1 hour ago, gregpj said:

I completely agree with this... I have heard it countless times that are simply too many sets to choose from and collect. I honestly believe that they are losing sales (maybe not enough to matter) as some parents tap out and just admit they can't get them all... so they get none at all of a certain theme. I know I have - we used to buy one copy of every Super Hero for ourselves, but stopped with last years sets.. too many repeat figs, too many sets.

 

This is a tough one... the sets are arguably more creative than ever, but so many parents think that LEGO is just regular old blocks. I heard it all the time selling the creative brick boxes... but what I say to them was don't underestimate the power of a child's imagination. Big parts, small parts, they create amazing things no matter what. Parents who realize this (or have witnessed it - my kids build all kinds of non-bionicle things out of those parts) still think LEGO is one of the best toys around and worth the price of admission.

What I really don't get is LEGO's unbalanced approach... how hard is it to have company-wide policies and enforce them for the biggest toy maker in the world? And I realize little slip ups happen, but we get so many contradictory stories on BP that it continues to amaze me.

 

True, nowadays TLG makes fantastic Lego sets, much better than I thought while I was sleeping in my Dark Ages. The ban policy I don't understand. As long as there is enough stock for the regular customers the ban policy is ridiculous. But another problem is, at least in the Netherlands, many toy shops don't offer the exclusives listed at the Lego "Hard to Find" tab. The big Technics sets like the Mercedes Arocs can be found easily but a Sandcrawler or Ewok Village is very hard to find in normal toy shops. This is not specifically bad for investment of AFOLs to finance their hobby but Lego limits their selling capacity to regular customers. I think not many parents visit the online Lego shop but they visit the local toy shops instead. Therefor they are not even aware of the existence of some Lego exclusives....So TLG limiting their sales in NL for exclusives. This and having a ban policy....it just doesn't match if the production is on track with the demand/ supply ratio.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Brenner
extra text

[Hogi]

1 hour ago, Brenner said:

True, nowadays TLG makes fantastic Lego sets, much better than I thought while I was sleeping in my Dark Ages. The ban policy I don't understand. As long as there is enough stock for the regular customers the ban policy is ridiculous. But another problem is, at least in the Netherlands, many toy shops don't offer the exclusives listed at the Lego "Hard to Find" tab. The big Technics sets like the Mercedes Arocs can be found easily but a Sandcrawler or Ewok Village is very hard to find in normal toy shops. This is not specifically bad for investment of AFOLs to finance their hobby but Lego limits their selling capacity to regular customers. I think not many parents visit the online Lego shop but they visit the local toy shops instead. Therefor they are not even aware of the existence of some Lego exclusives....So TLG limiting their sales in NL for exclusives. This and having a ban policy....it just doesn't match if the production is on track with the demand/ supply ratio.

completley agree.

before i got really into this stuff, i didnt know about some exclusives at all, coz i never saw them in stores. and usually i dont visit manufacturers websites to look at some products, usually im lookin in shops to get a clue about pricing and other comparable products. 

the banning resellers is another point, everybody will still be able to aquire lego. just a few sets are not possible to get anymore. they should rather implement a working procedure to limit the sales like intended in their webshop. make just 1 or 2 purchasable with the account (and a specific note: just 1 per person) or wahtever. their acutaly behaviour is just dumb.

anothre thing mentioned, the knock-offs. wow. ive seen many sw related stuff here, that was very scary, but i thought that its not too dangerous yet. BUT THEN: recently saw marvels avangers and thought: would be nice to have some iron man minifigs etc. looked at ebay and googled abit. it was full of marvel minifig knockoffs. this is becoming a HUGHE problem imo.

[Roy vd M.]

23 minutes ago, Hogi said:

their acutaly behaviour is just dumb.

Now don't get me wrong but I do think you are underestimating the management decision making of this multi-billion company a bit.

These things are easily simplified and maybe even considered 'dumb' to outsiders, while in reality it's probably a thoroughly thought-over strategy.

[firos]

My 2cents: Maybe its all PR related.

At some point Lego saw the reselling activity as damaging for the brand. How this was evaluated relates directly with the solutions enforced. Restricting the number of sets per online account could raise uproar amongst the non-reselling community. By filtering the accounts they catch the obvious/newest resellers while causing little to none collaterals.

Lego knows these actions are in no way effective at stopping reselling activity, but they allow Lego to appear to the public as fighting and condemning the reselling. This actions also urge the collector to buy fast from Lego before the stock ends.

Every Lego fans group at Facebook or Reddit has the same discussions against the reselling business, spiting venom towards it. By banning Lego scores amongst this crowd and reinforces they brand as something thrustworthy.

[dcdfan]

It's too bad that Lego doesn't remember that some of these resellers were purchasing their products when they were near bankruptcy...

[Bold-Arrow]

2 minutes ago, dcdfan said:

It's too bad that Lego doesn't remember that some of these resellers were purchasing their products when they were near bankruptcy...

That's my point . 

[gbg108]

I'm not sure it's dumb to ban resellers and I don't think it's for appearances. I think it's about managing stock levels and I'm not sure what choice LEGO has. Everyone here knows the power of the horde, heck many complain about it regularly. At the first sniff of retirement, right or wrong, the horde will clear out all available stock in days. This is particularly true of exclusives which are produced in lower numbers. 

Now if the set is actually retiring probably LEGO is happy to sell out of remaining stock and move on, but it's the times when it's not retiring that mess everything up. In those cases LEGO needs to choose between 1) having no Pet Shops on the shelves for an entire summer and explaining to customers why it's available for 30% more than MSRP on eBay or 2) altering production schedules to restock (which the horde may just gobble up again).

Since neither of these is a good option for LEGO and there is no way to predict or control rumors, they must feel their only option is to push resellers to places like Amazon and Walmart.

 

[Anakin_Skywalker]

6 hours ago, lostontheverglow said:

Banning people is something I think they are very smart to do. It stands behind their core values. If you look at their mission and vision statements, they make it clear that they want people to enjoy their product and encourage play. Not doing anything to stop people who buy out all the shelves to sell back to the consumers for 2x 3x 4x etc. MRSP will make the company look bad. Plain and simple.

Even though maybe this explanation could sound too "romantic" on one side, I completely agree. I believe this is the reason why they limit purchase quantity. Lifecycle and thus retirement of products it's something that always will generate the rush for a set when it gets discontinued but, at least, putting a cap on the purchases will put a patch on the "greedy" behaviour when the set is still available.

It's not obviously the ultimate solution to this issue, but I kinda see it like LEGO with this regard. Resellers are also important in some way because they contribute quite heavily to LEGO's fortune and sometimes they can play a key role in why certain LEGO sets are not discontinued in the "expected" deadlines (they just keep hoarding them according to their expectations), but it is more "fair" to the non-resellers audience that just pick one set to build and enjoy it.

[fantomas007]

TLG fights resellers, collectors hate resellers - its crazy, since both need us. Where can a new collector buy a set, which is several years over? No chance without resellers. Its better to pay double-triple price for dream set than to have nothing, or spend hundreds of hours to bricklinked all parts. We are important also for TLG - since we are increasing a lot the demand for their products, which is helping to reach better profits + we are extending availability of the sets from 2-3 years to 10 and more years without pressure to stock capacity of TLG and distributors, which can be focused into new sets. I really dont understand this TLG ban policy. The only problem for LTG is flipping - buying new sets in big amounts, which are going soon to "temporary out of stock" and can lead to angry customers. This is an area for ban policy - to check orders of new sets (in first weeks after release) and control whether somebody is not buying more than limited numbers of new sets. But checking, why somebody buy a old modular and after several days 2 UCSs, and then give a ban to him, its absolutelly crazy, They can easy stop a normal customer, who like many exclusive sets, or is buying presents for family, or is buying 4 same modulars in order to join them into 1 big modular, etc.

[mauro23]

I will explain you the secret behind. When a set is retired LEGO does not earn any money at this moment with these sets. 

But a potential buyer has to decide - will he spend his money to buy a retired set from reseller or to buy another set directly from LEGO.

At this time there is a competistion between LEGO and resellers to get the money from this potential buyer.

If LEGO would have sold all the retired sets to final customers then they would be sure to get the money always from the potential buyer for current sets - this would make an easier planning...

Edited February 9, 2016 by mauro23

[Anakin_Skywalker]

7 minutes ago, mesje said:

I really dont understand this TLG ban policy. The only problem for LTG is flipping - buying new sets in big amounts, which are going soon to "temporary out of stock" and can lead to angry customers. This is an area for ban policy - to check orders of new sets (in first weeks after release) and control whether somebody is not buying more than limited numbers of new sets.

Well, LEGO in the very moment you are purchasing something, flipping or not, does not know why you are doing it. You are simply lowering the stock of a set. So LEGO really does not distinguish flippers from long-term investors, I think, when banning people. You are just ordering "too much" of a set (and that "too much" is established by the individual caps set up for each product).

[biking_tiger]

LEGO needs a robust secondary market. 

Part of the value of a LEGO set is the resale value--even non-resellers know this. What other child's toy, once played with, can still be sold for near or even above retail value? LEGO holds value. It's collectible. This benefits LEGO.

A robust secondary market and broad base of collector-consumers creates that value.

What LEGO doesn't need is competition for in-production sets with resellers.

[fantomas007]

2 minutes ago, mauro23 said:

I will explain you the secret behind. When a set is retired LEGO does not earn any money at this moment with these sets. 

But a potential buyer has to decide - will he spend his money to buy a retired set from reseller or to buy another set directly from LEGO.

At this time there is a competistion between LEGO and resellers to get the money from this potential buyer.

If LEGO would have sold all the retired sets to final customers then they would be sure to get the money always from the potential buyer for current sets - this would make an easier planning...

 

I dont agree at all. There is no competition.

1) once a set is retired, it cannot be ordered from a lego store anymore - only resellers have this set, while TLG offers other sets.

2) a competition could be only in that case, when AFOL wants to buy a set from same serie (for example a modular) and has money just for 1 set, or he doesnt matter which modular will buy. (a risk of cannibalism). But this is only a rare situation, since most AFOLs want all modulars, or many modulars - otherwise you cannot see 5 modulars together in a lego store now! And stronger argument are money - if somebody is limited to buy just 1 modular, why would he buy a modular from reseller for EUR 300 and not a new modular from official store for EUR 150 ??? Its doesnt make a sense...Plus, most of the customers are focused on normal stores, just collectors are searching for old sets, and such people want all sets - they are buying not only actual sets from official sources, but also old sets from resellers.

So instead of a competition, there is a symbiosis - resellers are just filling a gap in lego production - offer old sets, which you have no chance to buy in normal store. And this is improvement of a market.

[fantomas007]

13 minutes ago, Anakin_Skywalker said:

Well, LEGO in the very moment you are purchasing something, flipping or not, does not know why you are doing it. You are simply lowering the stock of a set. So LEGO really does not distinguish flippers from long-term investors, I think, when banning people. You are just ordering "too much" of a set (and that "too much" is established by the individual caps set up for each product).

Its very easy to distinguish flippers from long-term investors - they can just apply a ban policy for new sets for first weeks after release. For older sets, it doesnt matter who is buying them. Plus, they can be active before Xmas.

[mauro23]

Not really. At the moment I have only limited amount of money to buy new sets. So I have to decide, do I buy the Ghostbusters HQ or do I buy three old City sets from resellers. When I decide to do the second LEGO won't get my money at this moment. So it is sure no symbiosis here....

Edited February 9, 2016 by mauro23

[asharerin]

You will know TLG is serious about combating reselling when it reaches out to Amazon and Ebay and only allows authorised resellers to sell their items on those platforms. As consumer habits continue to evolve and push toward customization (very lean business model) the big cash grab is in in full mode now with their licensed sets (high margin) and I don't see TLG making any real efforts to curb resellers. It is all just lip service until the day comes you get a nice little email from Amazon and Ebay asking you to verify your authorised seller status with invoices from TLG. Until then the bans are easily thwarted and ultimately meaningless, as intended.

[Yinchuan]

12 minutes ago, mesje said:

 

So instead of a competition, there is a symbiosis - resellers are just filling a gap in lego production - offer old sets, which you have no chance to buy in normal store. And this is improvement of a market.

-1 for prequal trilogy reference.

[fantomas007]

3 minutes ago, mauro23 said:

Not really. At the moment I have only limited amount of money to buy new sets. So I have to decide, do I buy the Ghostbusters HQ or do I buy three old City sets from resellers. When I decide to do the second LEGO won't get my money at this moment. So it is sure no symbiosis here....

I dont think there is many collectors with such thinking - most of them would buy all sets, which they want and are available.

The whole fight against resellers is stupid - TLG cannot win. If they ban people buying from their lego stores, these people will not stop reselling - they will buy sets in other shops for a little bigger prices - which will just lead to bigger prices in secondary market. No change in numbers of sets in secondary market.

[Migration]

18 hours ago, c_rpg said:

Update on my situation:

So I called them up today. I got a person on the line after waiting about 15 minutes. The man was very nice and tried to help me out. He asked a bunch of questions like why I tried to order several times and we discussed possible reasons for the cancelled orders. Like people in the thread mentioned a split order is a major reason for cancelling orders, but as my first single order was cancelled this was not the cause. Suspect two was a problem with credit card verification, but as my address checked out this was also not the case.

I get the feeling that the support team does not have a lot of control over the verification process as they talked about a 'special verification team that checks a whole bunch of information'. They said they would pass on my information to the 'verification team'. So far I haven't heard anything so I assume they are still 'verifying', whatever that means.

Your situation has come up a couple times before with members in the U.S. Long story short you spent too much on a newish account. it just looks suspicious when a new account suddenly "drops a G".

[Darth_Raichu]

27 minutes ago, biking_tiger said:

LEGO needs a robust secondary market. 

Part of the value of a LEGO set is the resale value--even non-resellers know this. What other child's toy, once played with, can still be sold for near or even above retail value? LEGO holds value. It's collectible. This benefits LEGO.

A robust secondary market and broad base of collector-consumers creates that value.

Agreed.  The horde hoarding tons of merchandise does not translate to robust secondary market.  LEGO is just doing whatever in their power to keep the bubble from popping.  Is it useless? You all know the answer to that

[biking_tiger]

Just now, Darth_Raichu said:

Agreed.  The horde hoarding tons of merchandise does not translate to robust secondary market.  LEGO is just doing whatever in their power to keep the bubble from popping.  Is it useless? You all know the answer to that

LEGO is the biggest loser if the bubble pops.