10221 - UCS: Super Star Destroyer

[Val-E]

Maybe we an add a second poll titled How many SSD´s do you still have?

[boliramirez]

I would buy a couple more if the price is right.....   

[flynnibus]

11 minutes ago, KShine said:

but I thought that you seemed to be.. exactly what you are.

 

Yeah, "honest" 

People can play the games with the market, supply, etc.  It's all within your right to do so.  Just don't try to pretend its anything different from what it is.  You like it?  Own it and be able to view it objectively.

I drive a car with 400+ HP and even with modern engineering still averages less than 17mpg.  I have no true practical reason for needing that kind of car vs a car that tops out at 70mph and could get 50mpg.  Am I putting my desire for personal, even potentially 'illegal' behaviors, ahead of the 'common good' of the planet or my other drivers?  Yup.  I own it - I'm not going to run around and try to preach about how to justify it and shut down those who have a different opinion on priorities.  I still try to act responsibly and be courteous to my fellow drivers.  I don't need to be a **** about it.  

[Val-E]

2 minutes ago, boliramirez said:

I would buy a couple more if the price is right.....   

Who´s the buying demographic, Mirreyes or their parents?

[gregpj]

2 minutes ago, flynnibus said:

Resizing copyrighted material does not make it unique or a new work.  Printing the Mona Lisa smaller doesn't make it the Muna Lisa ?

Your retort was the classic stone wall of 'why we will never buy KO' and not understanding at all why the KOs are successful where they are.. and what exposure the 1st party really has to them.

I just have to say, your example of the Mona Lisa is a good one... but Mini Lisa wouldn't have been funnier.

I understand why KOs are successful and I agree with you 100% that the original manufacturers often cause it (people who feel entitled and need something don't help this, not everyone can afford a Porsche). I look at Nintendo and the NES Classic - it launched those fake Mini NES Classics with 500 games... but if you've looked at the reviews of the fakes, they aren't all glowing. I am telling you why I do not buy or support KOs. I'd rather have an inferior product from the original manufacturer (or not at all it's really crap) than support companies and sellers who TRY TO FOOL buyers and who openly skirt laws and ethics.

And I'm not claiming that I'm perfect .. but I won't support businesses that do it because they can't figure it out on their own.

5 minutes ago, flynnibus said:

Legality was never the subject.  It was about ETHICS.  You tried to preach about how you were holding some moral high ground with your stance against buying those products.  Recap:  "I don't buy knockoffs because I don't like to support companies whose business model is to high jack someone else's ideas and marketing. It's something our family does in part because we can afford to and also because ethically it is questionable at best."

Ok, well if you're going to focus on that solely then I'm sorry I didn't use the word "legal" or "legality" in my original reply. I did use the word "steal" in a follow up post. Does that make you feel better? Reread that line up there .. I don't preach, I'm just telling you what I'm about. I never vilified anyone who chose that route, that is for them to decide.

16 minutes ago, flynnibus said:

So yeah, glasshouses when this community embraces and encourages behavior that is exploitive and manipulative in disrupting supply for personal gain.  That's just as ethically questionable.. and probably worse since everyone doing it here is doing it for personal financial gain vs just having a toy they want.

Hrmm.. you mean like people who try to create an unauthorized secondary market outside the normal distribution channel for the sole purpose of personal gain by exploiting timing and manipulating supply?  Yeah, many would call that poor and unethical.  So I'd cool the jets on throwing stones at people who decide a 3rd party product or even a KO is the right fit for their personal need.  Both are legal...  both have their own moral qualms.  Decide what side of the line you want to be on.. that's fine... but don't act like a saint while throwing stones and having your own grey areas.

Unauthorized secondary market? What? Seriously - why are you here in these forums? I honestly suggest you find another crowd to hang with if that's how you feel about the concept of investing in or flipping LEGO for profit.  I'm judging you on these comments that judge this community as a whole, not whether you own third party and KO products .. just to be clear. That is 100% unfair of you and uncalled for.

To get this back into the world of LEGO ... Those bogus brick knockoffs are NOT legal. They are stolen designs and unlicensed IP. Whether LEGO has "caused" this or "encouraged" this is kind of irrelevant .. eBay and Amazon are complicit because they're making money either way. People are happy because they get to have things they wouldn't normally be able to afford. None of that makes it right which is why many members are so disillusioned about how these large companies just don't seem to care. 

[boliramirez]

Just now, Val-E said:

Who´s the buying demographic, Mirreyes or their parents?

Mostly AFOL.s  I would say Mirreyes 25% and their parents the rest.

[Val-E]

1 minute ago, boliramirez said:

Mostly AFOL.s  I would say Mirreyes 25% and their parents the rest.

Are they not willing to import directly from other countries themselves or is it a customs barrier thing? It really is hard to believe people paying double the market rate just for convenience.

[gregpj]

7 minutes ago, flynnibus said:

People can play the games with the market, supply, etc.  It's all within your right to do so.  Just don't try to pretend its anything different from what it is.  You like it?  Own it and be able to view it objectively.

Wait a sec.. you just called it an unauthorized secondary market. Unauthorized means without permission (hinting at illegal when you look at how companies use the word), yet we have a right do to it. I'm not following... or wait, you don't like the idea of a secondary market that charges above MSRP for personal gain so you're going to bash it. Yet companies that copy designs for profit are ok. And people who buy KOs to save money for their personal financial well being are ok too. Got it.. "when it suits you" is the phrase I'll think of when I see your user name.

PS I drive a Toyota Prius V which gets pretty nice mileage, but our other car is a Mini Cooper S and I drive the snot outta that thing.

[boliramirez]

Just now, Val-E said:

Are they not willing to import directly from other countries themselves or is it a customs barrier thing? It really is hard to believe people paying double the market rate just for convenience.

for us in the North of Mexico, it is easy to go to the US, the border from Monterrey is only 200 Km (130 Miles) away.... and you can legally import tax free from the US into Mexico

5 toys per person.... So no taxes for me....

 

but if you order anything from any county by FEDEX , DHL , UPS, etc... All of those shipments are taxed no matter what it is (only documents and books do not pay) ... .... and customs has to open it up to check the contents...... and they are savages just like the 75192 from UK that you posted...... So it is mostly a customs issue...

[Val-E]

Makes sense. Customs tax on an 800 USD set are going to hurt plus transport, risk of damage, scam etc.

[flynnibus]

2 hours ago, gregpj said:

Wait a sec.. you just called it an unauthorized secondary market. Unauthorized means without permission (hinting at illegal when you look at how companies use the word), yet we have a right do to it. I'm not following... or wait, you don't like the idea of a secondary market that charges above MSRP for personal gain so you're going to bash it. Yet companies that copy designs for profit are ok. And people who buy KOs to save money for their personal financial well being are ok too. Got it.. "when it suits you" is the phrase I'll think of when I see your user name.

PS I drive a Toyota Prius V which gets pretty nice mileage, but our other car is a Mini Cooper S and I drive the snot outta that thing.

"Unauthorized" does not convey legality at all.  It means exactly what it says... done without approval; unsanctioned.  Lego is not trying to create, or authorize a new tier of distribution through individual sellers who soak up retail availability so they can resell it again.  Hence, 'unauthorized' - it's happening outside of Lego's intended distribution and retail model.  Those are facts.

I wasn't bashing resellers - I'm acknowledging it for exactly what it is.  What has happened is you have taken offense to being called a 'scalper' and got all defensive from there.

I didn't say companies that copy designs are ok.  I was commenting on their place in the market and why some buyers are attracted to them.  I never passed judgement either way - because I was trying to objectively comment on the relationship between the presence of KO products, their rise or fall, and their impact on the 1st party company.  You cited false assumptions about the product offerings and tried to make it a ethical position, and about 'right and wrong' - and made it about personal choices/beliefs.  Unfortunately for companies like Lego... the moral defense is not really a strong wall against this anymore with so much access to grey market and direct importers now through mainstream platforms like eBay, Amazon, or even 3rd party merchant platforms feeding places like Walmart, etc.

When you had to goto taobao or <a bad company> or a NYC hole in the wall to get stuff... that was enough to keep such products out of the view of the majority of your customers.  Now, Joe in Iowa sees <bogus bricks> ads in his facebook feed, Amazon searches, and likely his craigslist searches.  "Moral Defenses" are being eroded daily in our population at large, and the globalization of retail means "lack of access" is going away too.

Edited September 25, 2017 by gregpj
edited to remove some names

[gregpj]

2 hours ago, flynnibus said:

"Unauthorized" does not convey legality at all.  It means exactly what it says... done without approval; unsanctioned.  Lego is not trying to create, or authorize a new tier of distribution through individual sellers who soak up retail availability so they can resell it again.  Hence, 'unauthorized' - it's happening outside of Lego's intended distribution and retail model.  Those are facts.

I wasn't bashing resellers - I'm acknowledging it for exactly what it is.  What has happened is you have taken offense to being called a 'scalper' and got all defensive from there.

I didn't say companies that copy designs are ok.  I was commenting on their place in the market and why some buyers are attracted to them.  I never passed judgement either way - because I was trying to objectively comment on the relationship between the presence of KO products, their rise or fall, and their impact on the 1st party company.  You cited false assumptions about the product offerings and tried to make it a ethical position, and about 'right and wrong' - and made it about personal choices/beliefs.  Unfortunately for companies like Lego... the moral defense is not really a strong wall against this anymore with so much access to grey market and direct importers now through mainstream platforms like eBay, Amazon, or even 3rd party merchant platforms feeding places like Walmart, etc.

When you had to goto taobao or <a bad company> or a NYC hole in the wall to get stuff... that was enough to keep such products out of the view of the majority of your customers.  Now, Joe in Iowa sees <bogus bricks> ads in his facebook feed, Amazon searches, and likely his craigslist searches.  "Moral Defenses" are being eroded daily in our population at large, and the globalization of retail means "lack of access" is going away too.

First of all - I apologize for editing your post but those two particular names are not welcome in the general forums. The quick explanation is that we have no desire for search engines to reach these posts. That first one in particular has a history here - many a bad link were posted (unintentionally bad) and some users even had their router's DNS entries rewired due to some malware on that site.

I'm not really taking offense, I'm asking why you choose to be here if you don't agree with what this site is about - making money from LEGO? And I'm telling you that your language and replies with respect to resellers aren't conducive to intelligent and appropriate conversations. Nobody believes the word "scalper" is meant to be a positive thing and yeah, sometimes people on this site buy up all the products and resell them to make some money and often take advantage of a manufacturer's own inability to see the larger picture about perceived or caused scarcity. Some question the ethics, some are just jealous they don't have the capital or foresight and others are just ... well, spoiled and upset they can't have the nice things too?

(I'm not even sure on the history of why scalping is illegal... I guess the event promoters don't like the bad press it generates and it just seems to be an easier thing for the law to control.)

So to be blunt - If you want to hang out in these forums, I am asking you to be more respectful towards the members and what goes on. MOST active posters are resellers in some way.. some long term, some short term. And yes we makes jokes about people being QFLLs or reseller scum but they've been through this type of discussion multiple times and it's a joke people don't take too seriously.

I have to agree with you about the erosion of morals in our population.. it's kind of sad. Unfortunately that leads often into political discussions so I'm going to tread lightly, but I maintain that if you're supporting those companies, you really ought to think about why and perhaps change your own behavior before passing judgement on "resellers."  (this is a general comment, not directed to you or anyone in particular) Capitalism... gotta love it to hate it.

[MarleyMoose]

I still have 4 SSD NIB and a used one. I'll save a NIB one to keep and build since I prefer the smell of freshly open Lego in the morning..

[marcandre]

45 minutes ago, gregpj said:

I'm not really taking offense, I'm asking why you choose to be here if you don't agree with what this site is about - making money from LEGO? And I'm telling you that your language and replies with respect to resellers aren't conducive to intelligent and appropriate conversations. Nobody believes the word "scalper" is meant to be a positive thing and yeah, sometimes people on this site buy up all the products and resell them to make some money and often take advantage of a manufacturer's own inability to see the larger picture about perceived or caused scarcity. Some question the ethics, some are just jealous they don't have the capital or foresight and others are just ... well, spoiled and upset they can't have the nice things too?

So to be blunt - If you want to hang out in these forums, I am asking you to be more respectful towards the members and what goes on. MOST active posters are resellers in some way.. some long term, some short term. And yes we makes jokes about people being QFLLs or reseller scum but they've been through this type of discussion multiple times and it's a joke people don't take too seriously.

[flynnibus]

19 minutes ago, gregpj said:

I'm not really taking offense, I'm asking why you choose to be here if you don't agree with what this site is about - making money from LEGO? And I'm telling you that your language and replies with respect to resellers aren't conducive to intelligent and appropriate conversations

actually it sounds to me like you want an echo chamber where only similar thoughts and re-enforcement are allowed.  You won't find me attacking individuals or trying to change them, nor challenge the principle that they are buying to resell.  But as in all things, without balances things will go awry.  Even war has 'rules'.  So maybe instead of just pure reenforcement of behavior, maybe constraint or outside opinion isn't such a bad thing.  So please tell me how what I've posted isn't conducive to intelligent and appropriate conversations?  Maybe someone doesn't like I didn't give them a high-five for clearing out the STOCK ROOM in their effort to buy every possible available piece??  When one lives in an echo-chamber, they often lose how they are actually perceived outside their own circle.

I'm here because I'm interested in the product and the secondary market for it.  I'm here because I'm a AFOL and being an educated buyer is a smart buyer.  I sell some of my sets.  That doesn't mean I have to back full on onslaught "scorched earth" selling and flipping.

27 minutes ago, gregpj said:

Some question the ethics, some are just jealous they don't have the capital or foresight and others are just ... well, spoiled and upset they can't have the nice things too?

There's that superiority thing is coming out again.  Do you really not see how this comes across?  Superiority complexes and slandering those who simply don't high-five your idea?  I have multiple kids in college and paying for it outright...  you think I'm jealous because someone dropped 10-50k on investing in Legos?  That's funny.  You really should cut back on the judgement of people you know little about.

 

34 minutes ago, gregpj said:

I'm not even sure on the history of why scalping is illegal... I guess the event promoters don't like the bad press it generates and it just seems to be an easier thing for the law to control

Because it's about consumer protection trying to counter individuals from manipulating the market.  It's an example of something that seems innocent and harmless enough in isolation, but when done at scale and efficiency, it becomes a market disruptor that ultimately hurts consumers.  A lot of the older specific laws originate from powerful lobbies protecting their turf, but in the modern day, most laws strive for 'equal access' instead of allowing/encouraging collusion or groups from exploiting consumers.  It's a muddied topic now with all the forms of resale out there.. but the basic premise is the same.  At scale, it disrupts the normal distribution and transaction flows.  

This hurts consumers, and can hurt government too in grand scheme.  If a government has a 5% entertainment tax and a venue sells tickets at $20... but colludes with another entity to corner that market and then makes the street price $40.  The government is missing out on half the tax revenue of the sale and a ton of money can start 'disappearing' into untracked transactions.  Same thing here...  private seller transactions are a huge 'hole' in the economy the government is not regulating and taxing.  There is incentive to normalize it so it can be regulated.

[Sprocket77]

50 minutes ago, gregpj said:

So to be blunt - If you want to hang out in these forums, I am asking you to be more respectful towards the members and what goes on. MOST active posters are resellers in some way.. some long term, some short term. And yes we makes jokes about people being QFLLs or reseller scum but they've been through this type of discussion multiple times and it's a joke people don't take too seriously.

 

[waddamon]

6 minutes ago, flynnibus said:

actually it sounds to me like you want an echo chamber where only similar thoughts and re-enforcement are allowed.  You won't find me attacking individuals or trying to change them, nor challenge the principle that they are buying to resell.  But as in all things, without balances things will go awry.  Even war has 'rules'.  So maybe instead of just pure reenforcement of behavior, maybe constraint or outside opinion isn't such a bad thing.  So please tell me how what I've posted isn't conducive to intelligent and appropriate conversations?  Maybe someone doesn't like I didn't give them a high-five for clearing out the STOCK ROOM in their effort to buy every possible available piece??  When one lives in an echo-chamber, they often lose how they are actually perceived outside their own circle.

I'm here because I'm interested in the product and the secondary market for it.  I'm here because I'm a AFOL and being an educated buyer is a smart buyer.  I sell some of my sets.  That doesn't mean I have to back full on onslaught "scorched earth" selling and flipping.

There's that superiority thing is coming out again.  Do you really not see how this comes across?  Superiority complexes and slandering those who simply don't high-five your idea?  I have multiple kids in college and paying for it outright...  you think I'm jealous because someone dropped 10-50k on investing in Legos?  That's funny.  You really should cut back on the judgement of people you know little about.

 

Because it's about consumer protection trying to counter individuals from manipulating the market.  It's an example of something that seems innocent and harmless enough in isolation, but when done at scale and efficiency, it becomes a market disruptor that ultimately hurts consumers.  A lot of the older specific laws originate from powerful lobbies protecting their turf, but in the modern day, most laws strive for 'equal access' instead of allowing/encouraging collusion or groups from exploiting consumers.  It's a muddied topic now with all the forms of resale out there.. but the basic premise is the same.  At scale, it disrupts the normal distribution and transaction flows.  

This hurts consumers, and can hurt government too in grand scheme.  If a government has a 5% entertainment tax and a venue sells tickets at $20... but colludes with another entity to corner that market and then makes the street price $40.  The government is missing out on half the tax revenue of the sale and a ton of money can start 'disappearing' into untracked transactions.  Same thing here...  private seller transactions are a huge 'hole' in the economy the government is not regulating and taxing.  There is incentive to normalize it so it can be regulated.

Screw the government.  They take 50% off all my income, in various forms of taxation without representation.  A terrible leach full of wanton waste.  If making a profit on selling toys or things that people want is bad to you, you live in the wrong country.  Jewelers mark items up 300-400% over cost, etc. Etc, etc.  I employ people, work my tail off and built my business ( not lego) from nothing.  

[flynnibus]

To understand something does not mean you follow it or adhere to it.  But to fail to understand something, means to get burned by it.

[gregpj]

35 minutes ago, flynnibus said:

actually it sounds to me like you want an echo chamber where only similar thoughts and re-enforcement are allowed.  You won't find me attacking individuals or trying to change them, nor challenge the principle that they are buying to resell.  But as in all things, without balances things will go awry.  Even war has 'rules'.  So maybe instead of just pure reenforcement of behavior, maybe constraint or outside opinion isn't such a bad thing.  So please tell me how what I've posted isn't conducive to intelligent and appropriate conversations?  Maybe someone doesn't like I didn't give them a high-five for clearing out the STOCK ROOM in their effort to buy every possible available piece??  When one lives in an echo-chamber, they often lose how they are actually perceived outside their own circle.

You're right things require balance .. people have been shut down in the forums for posting

• "hey, who's with me to jack up the price of X"
• stock manipulation
• fraudulent returns
• tax evasion

People have discussed them all and more. All of those behaviors upset the balance of the secondary market and portray Brickpicker as a community in a negative way. Most members here do not want that because it is an unfair picture of how most members conduct themselves but as a society, we pick and choose those negative moments as highlights and expressions of how the world is.

It's not about an echo chamber, it's about being polite and truthfully many of your comments about resellers make you come across as an ass passing judgement on everyone who does it. We get enough "bad press" from people on other LEGO fan sites and in my opinion (and many of those here) it is unwarranted. They pick one moment in time and label all resellers as "blood suckers in it just to make a buck."

People don't want to read (rightly or wrongly) "And this is why people frown upon resellers and their impact on normal availability...  not just "providing a service" " because whether you see it or not, your comment implies 1) you don't agree with it and 2) that it should not have been done in the first place. It was not helpful nor conducive to intelligent conversation - I was surprised to read it and was surprised people let it go so easily. I can provide more examples, please don't make me.

But let's get something straight - I agree with much of what you say, just not how you say it. That's been said of me as well, but after four years and at least a half dozen members such as yourself coming here and "telling us how the market works and why people hate us" we tire of it and maybe focus on things we shouldn't. Or maybe we should tell members when they're coming across as pompous and arrogant? Maybe they didn't mean to and we're just providing constructive feedback? Let's call that the Ironbrick effect. He's one of the most notorious members to join in the last couple of years who was constantly telling us we were WRONG, INCORRECT and didn't understand a thing about the secondary market (why it exists or how it works).

35 minutes ago, flynnibus said:

There's that superiority thing is coming out again.  Do you really not see how this comes across?  Superiority complexes and slandering those who simply don't high-five your idea?  I have multiple kids in college and paying for it outright...  you think I'm jealous because someone dropped 10-50k on investing in Legos?  That's funny.  You really should cut back on the judgement of people you know little about.

I call it like I see it, I already said that. It's not about thinking I am superior but I'm not afraid to tell someone the truth about what I see (you should get that, you seem to do that as well). 

It also wasn't directed at you. It was directed at all those comments people on FB and other LEGO fan sites have said over the years about reseller scum. I have no idea who you are or what your situation is - good on you for paying for your kids college. I am quite a small investor around these parts .. most of our disposable income goes to our kids' activities and travel.

Anyways, for all those bored with this .. flynnibus, please feel free to reply but I'll take further replies to PM if needed. I've said my piece ... I'm done.

 

[TargetZero]

not sure why there is that whole debate...   I think flinnibus point are very good. and I do think he is right on many points. Maybe some don't buy them because they can afford to... but... it's like 10% of the population maximum.  Average Joe guy cannot buy a 1000$ lego kit.. sorry but no way...  and has KO seem to get better and better... well... we see what we see.. more KO sells than original.  But anyway, I am on a investing selling lego site. So i expect to have all sort of sellers here, thats my community and i am part of it. One have to respect it.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by TargetZero

[Lordoflego]

@Val-E, I'm still sitting on 2. 

@gregpj and @flynnibus, it's an interesting debate (even though you two are in a wrong thread lol) but one issue... @flynnibus can you STOP insulting this community, what the hell makes you think that walking into somebody's house and acting up is ok? Pls don't answer, just go silent period, or leave. I'm sorry but I've had enough of you as many others I'm sure too.

[flynnibus]

5 hours ago, TargetZero said:

not sure why there is that whole debate...   I think flinnibus point are very good. and I do think he is right on many points. Maybe some don't buy them because they can afford to... but... it's like 10% of the population maximum.  Average Joe guy cannot buy a 1000$ lego kit.. sorry but no way...  and has KO seem to get better and better... well... we see what we see.. more KO sells than original.  But anyway, I am on a investing selling lego site. So i expect to have all sort of sellers here, thats my community and i am part of it. One have to respect it.

 

 

For me, the Lego KO's don't seem to be suitable replacement.  I've only watched the reviews and read other's experiences tho.  I had enough of the Lego copies at a kid to have little interest in even 'better' alternate brands like Megablocks even tho they have some good themes.  For the extreme edge, like 10179 and 10221... I just chose not to have the kit.  I don't have a good way to display them anyways.. and the penalty for opening and building one of these sets just isn't worth the cost to me.  So even tho the KO makes the cost less... Its still like "why?"

I often wonder how many of these 1-2k dollar sets are sold to be built or not.  Tho, I guess enough people spend that kind of money bricklinking sets... so I guess enough do

Edited September 26, 2017 by flynnibus

[gregpj]

Alrighty.. we've all said our peace, I'm moving on and you guys should too. In fact, I'll start the process by removing the last couple posts on the subject. If anyone has a problem, they can PM me or another moderator or the Macks, whoever you fancy.

[Bold-Arrow]

I haven't been this entertained since someone last posted that their backorder flipped it in process then back to no stock whatchamagiget

 

[gregpj]

Just now, Bold-Arrow said:

I haven't been this entertained since someone last posted that their backorder flipped it in process then back to no stock whatchamagiget

Funny guy.. don't you have some fingerlings to sell in a TRU parking lot somewhere.